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Reda Aouad
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Farahfaza vs. G Minor
Hi.
I want to ask about the difference in sayr between Farahfaza and G minor (nahawand SOL). Scale-wise, same notes. But what differences are there
between their sayr? And is there any intonation difference between their notes?
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katakofka
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same Reda. one with oriental name and one is occidental
I am not sure in Turkish music if they are the same tho
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DaveH
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I understood farahfaza places quite a lot of emphasis on the relative major, ie ajam on Bb.
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Reda Aouad
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If there any differences.. can anyone post a short taqsim for each to show the differences in sayr?
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Masel
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Reda in turkish theory makan nihavent is ascending/descending - it starts as kurd on D (in arabic tuning) and finishes in nahawand G. Ferahfaza is I
believe descending - it starts on ajam in Bb, and finishes on nahawand G.
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FastForward
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My understanding of FerahFaza is that there is emphasis on the Ajam trichord on Bb.
Here is a translation of the description of FerahFaza from Sami Al-Shawwa's book,
Maqam Notes
- Ascending: Yekah (G), Ushairan (A), Ajam Ushairan (Bb), Rast (C), Dokah (D), Kurdi (Eb), Jaharkah (F), Nawa (G).
- Descending: Nawa (G), Hijaz (F#), Kurdi (Eb), Dokah (D), Rast (C), Ajam Ushairan (Bb), Ushairan (A), Yekah (G)
Rules:
This maqam begins on the Nawa sound to Husseiny and Ajam up to Muhayyar going up and down once and again going back to Nawa, then descending to Yekah
making sure to touch on the lower Qarar Hijaz and ending in Yekah.
Analysis:
First: Nahawand tetrachord From Rast (C) to Yekah (G)
Second: Ajam Ushairan Pentachord from Jaharkah descending to Ajam Ushairan.
Then comes a part that I can't understand, its confusing me a bit. I will write down in Arabic and hopefully someone more proficient with music can
translate and explain.
مقالم الفرحفزا
صعودا: يكاه عشيران عجم
عشيران راست دوكاه كوردي
جهاركاه نواه
هبوطا: نواه حجاز كوردي
دوكاه راست عجم عشيران
عشيران يكاه
شروطه:
هذاه المقام يبدا من صوت
النواه الى الحسيني
والعجم لغاية المحير
مرارا صعودا وهبوطا ثم
يعود من النواه هبوطا
لغاية صوت اليكاه مع مس
عربة قرار الحجاز وينتهي
قراره على صوت اليكاه.
تحليله:
اولا: (جنس نهاوند من صوت الراست الى صوت
اليكاه
ثانيا: (عقد نغم
عجم عشيران من الجهاركاه
هبوطا الى صوت العجم
عشيران: ثم (جنس
نغم جهاركاه على صوت
الجهاركاه ويتخلل هذا
الجنس الأخير والعقد الذي
قبله جمع متصل وهو صوت
الجهاركاه.
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Reda Aouad
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Thanks 
FF,
The last part in Arabic is a bit ambiguous.. but it says there is a Jiharkah jens on F.. and it has a common note with the 3ajam jens which is F.. I
think it's like a pivot note. Not sure about it.. it's not much clear.
But about the book.. who is Sami AlShawwa? And where did you get it from?
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katakofka
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| Quote: | Originally posted by FastForward
Then comes a part that I can't understand, its confusing me a bit. I will write down in Arabic and hopefully someone more proficient with music can
translate and explain.
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Yes, confusing, of course, indeed.
to make life easy, the minor scale played in arabic music is the Harmonic minor of western music
http://www.tonalcentre.org/Harmonicmi.html
Played from G, A, E, C...etc the same distance of notes are applied from any degree. Naming it farahfaza or Nahawand it's adding a nomenclature and
confusing things rather than simplifying. For me, and the way I learned them since youth is that the Harmonic Minor is called Nahawand played on G, A,
or C or on any note.
Do we have a name of the F# minor? should we add another name for it? Practically speaking it's useless giving a new name for that.
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Edward Powell
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In Turkish theory, and originally in Arab theory also, a maqam NEVER has the same seyir when it is transposed... in fact the concept of the
"transposed maqam" is a misnomer.
This is another example of how the modern simplification has damaged the music.
For example:
Hicazkar, ChedAraban, Suzidil, and many others all have the same scale but different tonics... AND COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SEYIR.
However, if my understanding is correct, you can transpose a maqam (including it's unique individual seyir - that all named maqams have) simply by
playing that maqam in ANOTHER TUNING, for example BOLAHANK, KIZNEY, MUSTAHZEN, YILDIZ, SUPERDE, MANSUR... etc. My understanding is that if you play
Nihavent from any of these tunings, the tonic will change but the seyir will remain uniquely nihavent.
But this is a different thing then playing Farafeza, even though it "looks like" nahawand from a different note... Farafeza is a different maqam with
a unique seyir of it's own - - - that is why it is Farafeza)
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FastForward
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Here is a description of FerahFaza by Sherif Muhiuddin, sorry its in arabic.
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Reda Aouad
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Edward.. I dont totally agree with you on the "completely different sayr". You can simply transpose Rast on G (a 4th lower) for lower voices for
example and still have the same sayr (and same fingering on the oud for example one string higher). Bayati on G is also played in some folklore songs
like "3ala dal3ouna" and "ya mijana". It's true.. some transposed maqams don't have the same sayr.. but not all of them. What if you just want to
transpose a song on a different note to match the range of the singer?
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Reda Aouad
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FF.. Thanks
Just to translate some of what is wrote in arabic in the first few lines:
- Farahfaza is wrongly named Nahawand on G although it has the same notes
- It has a unique character and sayr that is totally different than those of Nahawand
FF.. could you please tell us about that book? Where did you get this picture from?
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FastForward
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Just google it and found it, I remember seeing it sometime in the past and as such knew what to look for.
The book is by Sherif Muhiddin and his students, published in Iraq. I don't have a copy of it but I would love to get my hands on one. There are bits
and pieces online on various other forums.
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katakofka
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This is the translation of what in that book
why calling nahawand on different notes if nahwand is only played from C
so in the farahfaza you have jins nahawand ? 
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Reda Aouad
Edward.. I dont totally agree with you on the "completely different sayr". You can simply transpose Rast on G (a 4th lower) for lower voices for
example and still have the same sayr (and same fingering on the oud for example one string higher). Bayati on G is also played in some folklore songs
like "3ala dal3ouna" and "ya mijana". It's true.. some transposed maqams don't have the same sayr.. but not all of them. What if you just want to
transpose a song on a different note to match the range of the singer? |
Yes, you misunderstood - this is exactly what i just described...
transposing a maqam into a different tuning center is a totally different thing than a "transposed maqam".
When you transpose a makam to suit the singer then the WRITTEN PAGE WILL REMAIN EXACTLY THE SAME. You will just play in MANSUR instead of BOLAHANK for
example... this means that the written page remains the same- the seyir remains the same. But the "tonic in practice" shifts - - don't mistake this
for a shift in tonic. This is also why it is confusing and dangerous to use the Western note names, Do Re Mi... etc. Nihavend starts from RAST NOTE,
and that is C in arab mansur tuning. If you must make the tuning higher to suite the singer you can shift to BOLAHANK, and in this case the RAST NOTE
changes from C to D THE TONIC IS STILL RAST NOTE, THE TONIC DID NOT SHIFT FROM C TO D(meaning the tonic did not shift from RAST NOTE TO DUGAH NOTE)!
... yes you now act as if the tonic is D, but don't get confused because the written page still holds the tonic as C (rast note).
But the CONCEPT of a transposed maqam is a different thing. The difference is that the "scale" gets transposed ON THE WRITTEN PAGE. And with every
such "transposed" makam there is given a totally unique and individual seyir. Of course, you can then shift this around to other tuning systems like
KIZNEY, MANSUR, or whatever, but again, the written page will stay the same and so will the seyir.
Several great musicians have repeatedly made it a point to drill this greatly and sadly misunderstood issue into my head.
The makam system is very very very rich, with each named makam possessing it's own unique seyir. Of course you don't have to know this or follow it,
and it will all sound fine. But, the original unique seyir IS there for those who want to bother finding it and using it.
Otherwise why would you have makam Nishaburek? Why not just play Rast one whole tone sharp? No, Nishaburek "looks like" rast from DUGAH NOTE, but it
has it's own unique seyir.
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Reda Aouad
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Ok great. I totally agree.. sure it's a clearer explanation
The key sentence: for every NAMED maqam there is a unique sayr. 100%
Anyone has a good reference describing the sayr of each maqam?
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Edward Powell
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I didn't mean to get picky... cuz in fact most players don't bother with these details...
I wish I had such a book too. There are some good books written in Turkish.
But what I do when I want to learn a new makam is to get good recordings of this makam... and then get many written compositions in that makam (semai
- peshrev) and simply analyse several compositions and the seyir comes clear after a while.
A peshrev will always show the full seyir - - - so learn 3 peshrevs and you will notice how the makam is working.
- - -
there is one thing that I have noticed lately, and it seems that each makam has a sort of simple ESSENTIAL SEYIR, and then several "alternate" but
still common routes. Meaning that there are some things you really MUST touch on... but some others that you can take or leave out, but are still
common - - - it's up to you to decide. Or finally you can just do what you want as long as it makes sence and sounds good.
I don't think the "seyir" is something so completely definable that you can write it in a book and be done with it.... a book can be very helpful,
but finally it has to be learned by listening and learning compositions. ---and in my opinion, in the end, just finding/choosing your own way to do
it.
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katakofka
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from
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/makamlar.html
we read the definition of seyir:
---------------------------------------------
Each makam has its own particular progression or seyir which governs its performance. The seyir has a beginning, middle and end, as well as points of
rest centred around particular notes along the way. These important notes include the karar or durak (tonic/final), the tiz durak (an octave above the
tonic), the guclu (dominant), the giris (entry note), and muvakkat kalislar (temporary stopping points). A number of other tones are also important in
shaping the particular flavour of the makam and function as additional 'stopping points': the yeden (leading tone) and the asma karar (suspended
cadence). These are very important tones and convey a feeling of expectation. Another key feature of a particular makam is the melodic direction of
its seyir, which is determined by the relative position of the giris and the qarar. The three different types of melodic direction are ascending
(cikici), descending (inici) and ascending-descending (inici-cikici). In an ascending seyir the melody starts around the karar, moves up to the guclu
and then returns to the karar again. In a descending seyir the melody starts around the tiz durak, and then descends via the guclu to the karar.
Finally, in an ascending-descending seyir the melody starts around the guclu, moves above and below this note before returning to it, and then
descends to the karar.
----------------------------
So the melodic progression should be defined in each makam? it should be structured? studied? no more freedom in takasim?
I am totally against the seyir concept except if one want to learn how to play a makam. Afterward everyone should do his own seyir otherwise we all would sound the same when playing.
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Edward Powell
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I agree...
I think it is good to learn as much about seyir as you feel you need to give you vocabulary - but when you start to get the "feel" for it, then branch
out and make your own. Develop your own style - and do new things.
I see the seyir as good suggested guidelines to give a start. . .
Of course, if you want to sound really really cliche and typical, then you can follow the seyir to the "T".
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Reda Aouad
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What is the "T" ?! :P
As you would learn anything new.. you should start with the theory and at least grasp the basics to form a solid foundation.. then create your own
style. It's always history and theory that should shape the early stages of learning, in order to allow for future creativity. No one can learn oud
without learning about the great players of the old times and their compositions which are mostly dominated by the traditional sayr we are talking
about. Then one can start developing a new style of playing, like Marcel Khalife, Charbel Rouhana, Naseer Shamma, Jamil and Mounir Bashir, Anwar
Brahem, Simon Chahine, JT, Trio Joubran, and many many others. But you cannot be totally against the concept of sayr and the theory behind it, which
forms a unique character and mood for each maqam.
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Edward Powell
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...if you want my opinion more precisely, I think that it depends on what you CALL what you are playing... I think if you CALL it ferafeza makam
taksim, then you better know what the accepted traditional seyir is, and respect this. This does NOT mean that you are "trapped" inside ridged rules.
It just means that you respect the 'boundaries' of that maqam - - - same if I go to your house for dinner, I am not going to just walk into your
sisters bedroom. I know where my place is, and I follow the rules of
your house, and in the meantime tell as many good stories and funny jokes as i can think of, and we all will have a good time.
---if you want to do something totally different and not follow any seyir this is totally cool... but don't call it ferafeza or any other traditional
makam.
you see the difference?
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MatthewW
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
I agree...
I think it is good to learn as much about seyir as you feel you need to give you vocabulary - but when you start to get the "feel" for it, then branch
out and make your own. Develop your own style - and do new things.....
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I agree with your point here Edward - explore and develop your own style, and to that as usta Duke Ellington remarked: it don't mean a thing if it
ain't got that swing' 
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charlie oud
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Go wild in G minor, its a great key on the oud espscially 5 course
(F A d g c), It expresses the natural depth of the Arabic oud with so many possibilities in the lower register. C.
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charlie oud
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and also G major b7th: (G A B C d e f g). Hear them bass's sing!!!
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Reda Aouad
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What was that last maqam? :S
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