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jkndrkn
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Technique Questions on the Arabic Oud
Hello All.
I play an Arabic Oud tuned C FF AA dd gg cc. My string instrument background is in cello and fretted and fretless electric bass.
I'm currently working on developing my intonation, picking technique, and posture.
INTONATION:
Developing intonation has not been much of a problem since I'm used to playing untempered instruments. This is a matter of simply playing scales,
arpeggios, and octaves up and down the neck while constantly checking against open strings and easy intervals (fifths and octaves).
POSTURE:
Posture has been somewhat more challenging. Much of the literature I've come across stresses placing the face perpendicular to the ground with the
right leg elevated. This results in me being unable to see my hands while I play, something I'm not used to since all other stringed instruments I've
ever played make it very easy to use one's hands and rely on visual cues. I find myself having to close my eyes to avoid the temptation of tilting the
instrument toward me during a tricky shift or string-skipping passage. This, coupled with my tendency to breathe through my mouth makes me look very
silly indeed ;]
The right hand position I've observed in many video clips and tried to emulate does free my picking hand up while securing (I'd say clamping) the
instrument against the body. However, the hard edge of the instrument digs into my arm and I find this quite uncomfortable. I suffer from RSI and tend
to avoid such discomforts since they can aggravate my condition. Any advice on how to relieve or prevent this discomfort?
The left hand position is actually quite comfortable and I'd say is more comfortable than the positions one is forced into as a guitarist or bassist
even when one is playing at the "proper" (AKA, non-punk) angle and elevation.
Any general tips or observations on posture?
PICKING TECHNIQUE:
I can downstroke and upstroke and alternate down/up strokes fairly comfortably and am making marked progress in avoiding accidentally playing
double-stops. However, I've not yet figured out how to play tremolos at the speed I've listened to in many recordings. The literature I've read
stresses that picking should happen with the wrist, but I'm finding that my wrist is not quite agile enough to achieve a quick and clean-sounding
tremolo. Is this just a matter of time? Is it easier to play agile-sounding tremolos on a Turkish Oud due to their higher pitches and presumably
higher string tensions? Are there any particulars about holding the risha that make tremolos and other fast passages easier to execute?
Any thoughts on how to improve tremolo picking skills? Any thoughts on picking technique in general?
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Brian Prunka
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Regarding not being able to see your hands with proper posture: get a mirror. It's more helpful and accurate and is easier to transition to not
looking at your hands at all.
Re: tremolo: this is a really difficult area to learn without a teacher in person.
some observations:
-I think it's more of a forearm rotation than a wrist movement per se.
-keep the motion relaxed, slow, and large at first. Ultimately, you will narrow the range of motion and use smaller motions, but at
first it's important to have the proper form and be relaxed, and to follow through with your pick strokes (like swinging a baseball
bat, golf club, or tennis racquet).
-make sure there is plenty of risha sticking out and that you're gripping it fairly loosely. The tendency for many players is to hold the risha tight
and close because it is easier to control, but if you can learn to utilize it from farther away and loosely held, you will find a lot of things
easier.
-practice starting the tremolo in the air above the string and slowly lowering it into the strings. you should be able to "fade" in and out of the
tremolo. You will also notice when you get too deep to be able to tremolo properly.
-don't start the tremolo with an accented note, play lightly
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Sazi
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In the absence of a physical teacher, this dvd will help a lot - there are a couple of different ways shown how to hold the oud and plenty of great
risha technique excercises, along with more maqamat than you could probably ever need... all with videos to demonstrate.
One thing I found with regards to the oud digging into your arm, or adversely affecting your shoulder is maybe hold the oud neck slightly more out
from the body so the oud is at about 40-45 degrees angle, (still keeping the face vertical) - helps me anyway.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7231
Best of luck.
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Hatem_Afandi
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Hi Jkndrkin,
I think the best option for you is a book written by our friend, Marina Toshich, who is a member of this forum.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=pd_lpo_ix_dp_go_ca_us_en_marina.020tosh...
It comes with a DVD that illustrates all kinds of infrmation that address all your questions.
Good luck,
Hatem
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jkndrkn
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Brian, Sazi, and Hatem, thanks for your help. Brian's Risha advice is especially helpful since I've found myself tending to grip the risha too firmly
and with a very short length of protruding end.
I've looked into Marina's book and have considered purchasing it before. I think it would be useful to have video illustrations of much of these
technique questions so I'll probably consider either her book or Oud Proff's DVD.
Thanks again.
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Christian1095
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This, coupled with my tendency to breathe through my mouth makes me look very silly indeed ;]
--- I completely know what you mean...
Also, post videos to youtube and link to this site and ask for feedback... I've gotten some great feedback here.
Chris Walters
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Christian1095
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Also, looking at the posture of professional players.... The best method seems to be the one that is most comforatable.... I don't think there is
any **True** Standard...
Here Farid Al Attrache looks really laid back and comfortable... Oud is not held at a perpendicluar to the floor angle... and if it's good enough for
him....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZr_GkWm8gM
The guys from Le Trio Joubran seem to be more in the **Right** way to hold the instrument
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgsXryFC-ws
Hamza El Din seems to hold it angled away from his body...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9tGPTYqfCs
Alis Hassan seems to bend over the instrument
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJYe4g_kUj4
So in my opinion - it seems like the best way to hold the oud is going to really depend on your body type and making the oud easy to play....
Chris Walters
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jkndrkn
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Thanks Chris. It does seem like posture is very personal. I'm sure I'll eventually settle into something that suits me. I'll keep watching videos for
advice.
An aside: I ran into Le Trio Joubran recently. Would their music be categorized as strongly western-influenced? Are ensembles of Oud players common in
more traditional Arabic music?
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Brian Prunka
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Quote: Originally posted by jkndrkn  | Thanks Chris. It does seem like posture is very personal. I'm sure I'll eventually settle into something that suits me. I'll keep watching videos for
advice.
An aside: I ran into Le Trio Joubran recently. Would their music be categorized as strongly western-influenced? Are ensembles of Oud players common in
more traditional Arabic music? |
the answers to your questions are 1) yes and 2) no.
It's strongly influenced by tradition as well, but there is a significant western influence.
However, given the history of the orient and occident, influence has been flowing both ways for centuries, so the question of "purity" or
"authenticity" is itself a little presumptuous. It's not like anything anyone was playing 100 years ago, but neither is "Enta Omry" or "Awwal Hamsa".
Even the Sama'i was imported from Istanbul.
Ensembles have traditionally tried to maintain a heterogeneous sound, with little or no doubling of instruments. That went out the window with Oum
Kulthoum and Farid's large orchestras, though.
Christian, your general point is valid, but it does seem to me that the face of Farid's oud is perpendicular to the floor. He is just angling the
neck downard, which is actually the most common posture I've observed among old-school oud players. Hamza El-Din's posture of having the oud turned
slightly toward the floor is also common. The angle away from the body seems like a personal thing.
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jkndrkn
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | It's strongly influenced by tradition as well, but there is a significant western influence.
However, given the history of the orient and occident, influence has been flowing both ways for centuries, so the question of "purity" or
"authenticity" is itself a little presumptuous. |
You're right. I tend to be drawn to non-Western music partly because my ear is thrilled by new sounds and tired of old sounds. I do value groups that
combine influences, though. These groups help music evolve and bring new sounds to new audiences.
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fernandraynaud
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Hi, JD,
Forget the perpendicular to the floor issue. If you look carefully at videos you'll find more good players than not looking at their hands a
lot, and many hold the oud at almost a 45 deg angle. It looks very proper and imposing, and it sounds best, when you play with the oud frontally
facing the audience and not the ceiling, and with the player making intense eye contact with the audience. It's like Couperin's totally specific
recipe for playing the harpsichord, he says the right foot a little forward, the torso slightly to the right, and they'll rap you on the knuckles with
a 2 by 4 if you start making like Stevie Wonder an' groovin'. Here is what I've heard from good players: Just play how it feels right, look at your
hands if you like that, you'll come to your own comfortable way of playing in front of people as you go.
Those carpet backings that prevent slipping are GREAT, a little 3" x 6" piece on your right knee is all it takes, keeps the oud from scooping and
sliding.
On tremolo it will suddenly start working. At first it will only work with your hand relaxed a certain way, and with the risha just so, for me it's
there being a good 1cm of thin working surface on the risha parallel to the strings, then it works more often, and then after a few weeks you can do
it with a credit card while standing on your head. Like Marina says in her book/DVD, don't worry it at first it's "like this"  .
p.s. but close that mouth, JD, and the reason they recommend holding the oud vertical is so you stop drooling saliva inside.
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David.B
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I don't know if I can give any advice about technique, but what about a credit card first on tremolo before risha ? I trained myself with a thick
rough unworked piece of horn, when you go back on a thin soft risha you are more relax and the improvement is immediate !
| Quote: Originally posted by jkndrkn | INTONATION:
Developing intonation has not been much of a problem since I'm used to playing untempered instruments. This is a matter of simply playing scales,
arpeggios, and octaves up and down the neck while constantly checking against open strings and easy intervals (fifths and octaves).
|
Be careful I made the same mistake ! A maqam is not an European scale ! In 19 century Mashaqah described the maqamat with melodic patterns. This is
the European intrusion since Napoleon which simplify and compared the Arab music with European's one. In fact the first "genre" (jins) is the soul of
the maqam, the second one is changeable and allowed modulations. So no arpeggios and no octaves (for exemple Saba does not duplicate at the octave,
you've got a jins Hijaz on the high register [c db e f]), no transpositions either, this is helpful when you modulate : each maqam had a name which
corresponded to a "tonic" (Shahnaz : D, Hijaz kar : C, Shadd `Araban : GG).
The best to learn that is to remember phrases from your favorites takasim which contains the soul of the maqam.
About the position : I think you should see 11 strings in 1 when you play on oud, the neck is short and you don't need to see your fingers because
your thumb is supposed to be stuck closed to the nut or closed to the ribs. Unmovable marks.
Also you should hold the oud only with the arm which hold the risha to allowed quick movements with the other hand. For example you can train yourself
by playing tremolo-s on open strings without the left hand (if you hold the risha with the right) to support the neck. If you cannot, it means your
position is wrong and you will be stuck when things will get harder !
Sorry about my English : poor one 
Anyway, I hope it helps a little bit 
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fernandraynaud
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What David is pointing out is that the whole concept of Western music since the disease of Equal Temperament took over, is that everything is
transposable and boringly regular, whereas even a harpsichord tuned in Meantone or Vallotti or Lehman will sound very different in the key of C Major
and the key of A Major. Nobody said that because Bach's well tempered klavier, all 48, are all playable without "wolf intervals" means that all those
keys are supposed to sound the same! Not at all!
On the Oud even "the same notes" octaves apart don't have the same name, and things do not transpose symmetrically, that's not the idea. There's an
emotional richness to every little cranny. If you play Ajam in C, the E should be a (lovely!) perfect Major third, not an ET Major third, and if you
play Rast the E should be flatter than that by about 10-15 cents, if I'm not mistaken. You can't just transpose Rast to F#, it wouldn't be Rast! The
oud is a God-sent opportunity to discover a new way of looking at music.
I mark my strings using a template printed with the WFRET program. That's ET. And I have one Egyptian oud that came with inlaid lines in the
fingerboard. That's not to say I want to always finger on those reference lines, not at all, but it's very helpful at first to see where they are
relative to what SOUNDS good. Also since the oud is not normally playing harmony, there's a lot of slack you don't have in a Western ensemble.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | | What David is pointing out is that the whole concept of Western music since the disease of Equal Temperament took over, is that everything is
transposable and boringly regular, |
Hmm . . . while I understand the sentiment, I think the music of Schubert, Chopin, Debussy, Bill Evans, John Coltrane, and Wayne Shorter is a fair
trade-off for the compromises of equal temperament.
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fernandraynaud
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No, I don't think the composers you like do anything to compensate for the deficiency I was mentioning. I wasn't saying that the music is
boring, it's that all scales have precisely the same boring intervals, transposition is mathematically the same in all keys. If you tune a
keyboard, instead of in Equal Temperament, using one of the older tunings, like Meantone that optimizes some keys while making others unbearable, or
one of the Well Temperament systems like Vallotti or Lehman that allows all keys to be used, suddenly a whole new dimension appears in that every
key has subtly different intervals and "feeling". Transposition no longer produces the same thing, "just a few half-tones up or down". The
expediency of Equal Temperament was rejected for ages until the 19th century, for very good reasons, there is nothing brilliant about ET. If you play
e.g. harpsichord tuned in one of the older temperaments, returning to the piano is a painful experience: all scales sound equally poor. The Arabic
system carries things even further in "personalizing" the notes and intervals of every tone row.
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jkndrkn
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Oh, I'm well aware of this. I've been working through a book of Maqamat and am really enjoying the (what some people would consider frustrating and
inconsistent) variety of subtle differences between many even closely-related maqam.
What I means, is that my friends that have only ever played guitar and piano and tune using electric tuners do not have the ability to detect very
subtle differences in pitches. Since I play untempered instruments, I necessarily do.
Regarding frenandraynaud's statement: "it's that all scales have precisely the same boring intervals" I feel very much the same way. The melodic
expressiveness available in untempered instruments and explored so deeply in Arabic music is powerfully attractive to me.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | | No, I don't think the composers you like do anything to compensate for the deficiency I was mentioning. I wasn't saying that the music is
boring, it's that all scales have precisely the same boring intervals, transposition is mathematically the same in all keys. If you tune a
keyboard, instead of in Equal Temperament, using one of the older tunings, like Meantone that optimizes some keys while making others unbearable, or
one of the Well Temperament systems like Vallotti or Lehman that allows all keys to be used, suddenly a whole new dimension appears in that every
key has subtly different intervals and "feeling". Transposition no longer produces the same thing, "just a few half-tones up or down". The
expediency of Equal Temperament was rejected for ages until the 19th century, for very good reasons, there is nothing brilliant about ET. If you play
e.g. harpsichord tuned in one of the older temperaments, returning to the piano is a painful experience: all scales sound equally poor. The Arabic
system carries things even further in "personalizing" the notes and intervals of every tone row. |
The modulatory schema and use of chromaticism in the composers I mentioned requires the equal distribution of the comma in order to have the proper
effect. They utilize chromaticism and modulation in a way that would not be effective in unequal temperaments.
While I agree with you that some music is enhanced by other temperaments (or preferably in most cases, just intonation), I disagree with the
idea that we would be somehow better off without equal temperament at all.
It's true that equal temperament is not necessary for the performance of most music, but it's not actually used in practice in msot music, even in
the west. Most (good) singers sing in just intonation or a combination of just intonation and ET depending on the circumstances. Saxophone and
Trumpet players use a combination of ET and JI as well, as do string family players when not performing with a piano.
All temperaments have strengths and weaknesses. To fail to acknowledge ET's strengths is as much a mistake as to think that ET is better than other
temperaments or JI.
All temperaments fail to provide ideal intervals.
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fernandraynaud
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Considering the overwhelming dominance of ET it doesn't hurt now and then to point out its weaknesses.
I find ET repulsive, nauseating, a musical catastrophe. So there.
With the double strings and the sympathetic resonance, I can't tune by beats on the oud at all. So I have been tuning my ouds using my Korg OT-120 set
to Vallotti, since I use that preset for harpsichord. For the notes we care about, C, D, G, A and in my case a low E instead of an F, Vallotti is the
same as meantone, i.e. these are perfect 3:2 intervals. With the A being the same 440, the C strings in particular are markedly different from ET,
like almost 15 cents sharper, but D and G are different too, and with the open strings tuned this way I DO get the perfect fourths/fifths I might get
by nulling out beats if I could hear them, and the oud sounds much better to me than using ET intervals. Of course that's just on open strings, but it
also affects sympathetic resonance, and I don't think it's insignificant.
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David.B
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Hi jkndrkn,
I was just warning you about the way you work on maqamat :
Without any advices I used the occidental method of playing a scale from the tonic to the octave and the whole ambitus, I used arpeggios and
transposition... This is not the spirit of Arab music which doesn't use ET and this occidental way of learning is not adapted ! The best is to learn
by ear with melodic patterns which suggest the most important points in the maqam.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Considering the overwhelming dominance of ET it doesn't hurt now and then to point out its weaknesses.
I find ET repulsive, nauseating, a musical catastrophe. So there.
With the double strings and the sympathetic resonance, I can't tune by beats on the oud at all. So I have been tuning my ouds using my Korg OT-120 set
to Vallotti, since I use that preset for harpsichord. For the notes we care about, C, D, G, A and in my case a low E instead of an F, Vallotti is the
same as meantone, i.e. these are perfect 3:2 intervals. With the A being the same 440, the C strings in particular are markedly different from ET,
like almost 15 cents sharper, but D and G are different too, and with the open strings tuned this way I DO get the perfect fourths/fifths I might get
by nulling out beats if I could hear them, and the oud sounds much better to me than using ET intervals. Of course that's just on open strings, but it
also affects sympathetic resonance, and I don't think it's insignificant.
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Of course, I don't advocate using ET for Arabic music; and you're entitled to whatever opinions you wish to espouse, no matter how foolish.
I agree that the improved resonance of using just intervals suits the instrument and the music better, as I described in my earlier post.
Since strings are in fourths, they should be pure 4:3 intervals.
I'm confused somewhat by your statements, because with pure fourths, the C should be flatter , not sharper, than ET. An ET P5 is 2 cents
flatter than a pure 3:2 5th, thus an ET 4th is 2 cents sharper than a pure 4:3 4th.
If A is the reference, then C should be 6 cents flat relative to ET. 15 cents sharper than ET is actually 21 cents sharper and the pure interval,
which is far more offensive than ET's being 6 cents sharp.
As I said before, the Arab standard is to use G as a reference, which makes the D and C each 2 cents off relative to ET, and the A 4 cents off.
If you mute the strings you're not tuning, the sympathetic resonance doesn't interfere. You can also use harmonics and play one string at a time,
which may help.
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fernandraynaud
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What I see is that a Vallotti-tuned oud's cc reads over 10 cents sharp on an ET setting. And an ET-tuned oud's cc reads over 10 cents flat on a
Vallotti setting, this with the AA strings identical. We can both check the tables later. Anyway I do find using a tuner easier than hearing beats.
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jkndrkn
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I can tune by beats just fine if I make sure to only pluck only a single string in each course to tune the perfect fourths, and then tuning within a
course off of the in-tune string.
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fernandraynaud
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I don't know why, but I find it's harder than that. Something strange happens where even if I damp the second string, the rest of the instrument is
hard to totally quiet, and thus the tuning is excruciatingly sensitive around the "ghost note" you've just muted. It's as if the whole remembered the
part. I'll never explain it, it sounds like voodo, so let me just say I prefer using a tuner.
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jkndrkn
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So, I was surprised for my anniversary with a copy of Marina's book!
Watching her DVD and her demonstration of plucking technique has helped guide me toward a better way of plucking that has made tremolo much much
easier.
A key problem I encountered was the problem of the Risha unevenly striking the strings during a tremolo and randomly striking one or the other strings
causing a very uneven and uncontrollable sound. I noticed that I tended to pluck with the edge of the risha perpendicular to the strings.
I heeded Marina's advice when plucking down to pluck down through the string and stop the risha on the next adjacent string. This still didn't help,
as I was still plucking perpendicular to the strings. This is the plucking technique I use when playing guitar and pickstyle electric bass.
After a while, I noticed that she advised players that when plucking upward, that the risha would not actually strike the strings immediately above
the just-plucked string. The only way that this made sense, was if the risha was not striking the strings perpendicularly and was instead striking the
strings at an angle down toward the next adjacent string and the face of the oud itself. I noticed that when plucking upward in this way, the risha
struck the strings with some of the flat of the risha and not just the edge, making it very easy to strike both strings without the unevenness in
sound quality of holding the risha perpendicular to the strings.
To the list of tips on how to play smooth and controllable tremolos, I would add paying very close attention to the angle at which the strings are
struck and not using a purely perpendicular and downward motion, rather one that has a bit of an angle and moves toward the face of the oud. I also
find that this approach also allows my wrist to move more naturally and more effortlessly and relieves me of a need to involve my forearm in the
motion of using the risha.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | | Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | ...I have been tuning my ouds using my Korg OT-120 set to Vallotti, since I use that preset for harpsichord. For the notes we care about, C, D, G, A
and in my case a low E instead of an F, Vallotti is the same as meantone, i.e. these are perfect 3:2 intervals. With the A being the same 440, the C
strings in particular are markedly different from ET, like almost 15 cents sharper, but D and G are different too, and with the open strings tuned
this way I DO get the perfect fourths/fifths I might get by nulling out beats if I could hear them, and the oud sounds much better to me than using ET
intervals. Of course that's just on open strings, but it also affects sympathetic resonance, and I don't think it's insignificant.
|
Since strings are in fourths, they should be pure 4:3 intervals.
I'm confused somewhat by your statements, because with pure fourths, the C should be flatter , not sharper, than ET. An ET P5 is 2 cents
flatter than a pure 3:2 5th, thus an ET 4th is 2 cents sharper than a pure 4:3 4th.
If A is the reference, then C should be 6 cents flat relative to ET. 15 cents sharper than ET is actually 21 cents sharper and the pure interval,
which is far more offensive than ET's being 6 cents sharp.
As I said before, the Arab standard is to use G as a reference, which makes the D and C each 2 cents off relative to ET, and the A 4 cents off.
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Fernand, I gave some thought to your "15 cents sharp C", and here's what I'm guessing:
Your temperament (Vallotti) must be optimized for the key of C somewhat. In the key of C, the A's would be expected to be somewhat flat (so that the
IV chord is in tune). If you used A as a reference, then this would make the C's sharp instead (by approximately the amount you're experiencing). In
other words, your temperament is not giving you pythagorean 4ths on the A-D-G-C set.
It seems most historically likely (and definitely the practice of the relatively recent history) that in Arabic music, the A D G C strings are
intended to be pure 4ths, i.e., Pythagorean tuning. Perhaps your tuner has a Pythagorean setting? If not, ET is a closer historical approximation
to the Pythagorean tuning than any of the Baroque temperaments, which came about much later and were design to maximize use of thirds that would sound
better in chords.
Of course, the actual tuning is far too complex for ANY temperament, which is why the oud is fretless and the qanun has all those levers.
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