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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
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Mood: Dreaming
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Americans are hungry for the oud and all her music
Great news. After a hugely successful weekend at the Woodstock Invitational Luthier showcase. it seems that Americans can't get enough of the oud and
oud music. We are honored to have as our star luthier, Faruk Turunz as well as baglama maker Suleyman Aslan. Ara Dinkjian played the opening night
concert to a wildly appreciative audience, may of which heard and saw and oud for the first time. On Sunday Haig Manoukian and Soren Baronian played
to the same type of reception. I just came back from a short tour in Asia, and my oud met with the same reception. The heart speaks! My slow
transition from guitar player to oud player has opened my world up to so many new experiences!  I would love to hear from others like me who have similar experiences with Westerners hearing the oud for the
first time.
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
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Hi Shareen- It's nice to hear that Faruk and the ouds were well received in NY. Your excitement and genuine enthusiasm for the oud comes through
clearly, and I do share your sentiments. I also came from a 6 string electric/acoustic guitar background but have fallen in love with the oud so much
so that I play it most all the time now. In fact not only the oud, but fretless instruments in general have taken my focus, along with musics and
instruments from other cultures.
Have you come across Erkan Oğur, A Turkish musician who plays not only saz and oud but fretless classical guitar? Hearing him play fretless
guitar ( listen to his playing on 'Fuad' Cd, a wonderful collaboration with Djivan Gasparyan) is a revelation, we can explore the fretless guitar as
well as carry on with oud! 
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
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Hi Shireen & Matthew
My favorite Turkish recording includes Erkan Oğur on fretless guitar on some tracks: http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU960643DS780
By the time I took up oud, I was pretty burned out as a guitarist and no longer playing regularly. I see a HUGE divide in interest and acceptance of
the oud between "cosmopolitan America" and "middle America." I can sit and play on the University of California, Berkeley campus (near where I live)
and people will stop and listen and strike up conversations with me. On the other hand, I've tried this in the park around the state capitol in
Sacramento (where I grew up) and found that people would not make eye contact with me, let alone stop and listen or--heaven forbid!--talk to me!
However, as a jazz guitarist, I was/am already pretty accustomed to non-interest and non-acceptance in "middle America."
Forgive me for being a little political here, but I feel that the great size and relative isolation of the United States does facilitate an ignorance
of the broader world—at least in parts of the USA—which isn’t even possible in most corners of the world.
Peace out,
John
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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As you say, they don't pay attention to guitarists either, so it has nothing to do with what is foreign, for these $#@ people you're just another
"playing for spare change" musician -- a public park may not be the best venue. Of course people in Berkeley will stop and listen to anything, and
want to chat, they're curious, friendly and they have time.
It would be more significant to play where busy people expect legitimate music and see how they react. It might also be diplomatic to identify the
instrument as simply "a fretless lute", and not "an oud" with all the background information this requires. They have heard of Lutes, and they might
like the sound, but they might not be particularly interested in lectures on native instruments of far away lands.
It's hard for people to understand how big and self-contained a country the United States is. The following is a true story. A young woman who was
studying at Berkeley was telling a (very) young California student that she was from Poland. He asked if they spoke English there. She said "not
generally". So, the kid asked, how do they communicate? This is hard to comprehend for most people in the world, but is not uncommon reasoning among
(not too bright) people who have never set foot outside the States. They see that immigrants arrive, and gradually learn to communicate (in English).
They don't give much thought to what they did before, but it's clear that they didn't "know how to communicate".
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shayrgob
Oud Maniac
Posts: 57
Registered: 9-23-2009
Location: Chi-Town!
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Mood: No Mood
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fernandraynaud: haha I have a similar story. I told an old friend from college that I was learning flamenco and he's like "why are you always into
weird music?"
I was speechless. Apparently he had no clue what I was talking about. lol
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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You mean he didn't know you were talking about DANCING?
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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 hehe, nice one Anthony!
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
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Mood: Al Salam
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Having grown up in the USofA, it is, as FR says hard for people to understand how big and self-contained a country the United States is unless you've
lived there for a while. From the deep south, home of the delta blues and cajun musics, to the midwest, to the West Coast, to upper NY,
East-West-North -South...it's huge and has all manners of variety and experiences under the sun.. Musically I believe there is a lot of interesting
things going on which includes a greater awareness of world musics originating from beyond its borders, though some parts of the country and
individuals are still slow on the uptake.
Getting back to fretless guitars, I was wondering if anyone out there is familiar with this ouditar on ebay which looks like an inexpensive fretless
classical guitar-
http://cgi.ebay.com/s-CEM-MC-OUDITAR-FRETLESS-LUTE-OUD-UD-LAVTA-lut...
Would anyone know of any contacts that sell similair fretless guitars ( besides the Godins)?
cheers, MW
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Hi!
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | | It might also be diplomatic to identify the instrument as simply "a fretless lute", and not "an oud" with all the background information this
requires. |
Maybe just call it the "father of the lute" 
Good guitar shops should be able to help you, though many fretless guitars are custom made ... often the frets of a standard guitar were removed by a
luthier. I googled for "fretless acoustic guitar" and found THIS example for a shop in the US. But as you can see, a good one has it's price.
It might also help to visit unfretted.com to find manufacturers. They also have a forum.
But I bet Edward Powell can tell you more about fretless guitars than I.
PS: HERE's a video of a nice arabic improvisation played on a converted flamenco guitar.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I'm not as crazy for 6 string acoustics, but there's that very cool shop called Rondo Music (in business 50 years) that sells a few primo Chinese
makers' goods, that include fretless electric guitars. I had seriously ogled these before :
http://www.rondomusic.com/product1052.html
http://www.rondomusic.com/al2500albinofretless.html
http://www.rondomusic.com/AL3000csbfl.html
They don't sell junk. These Agile guitars look very well-made, around $380.
[file]12076[/file] [file]12078[/file]
The best part is if you don't like an instrument and tell them within a week, they will have UPS pick it up at their cost, and they will refund 100%
including your outbound (ground) shipping. I ended up buying several instruments from them, their prices are great.
They have had some beautiful 8 string guitars made in China just for them.
http://www.rondomusic.com/8StringGuitars.html
Six string fretless basses (the oud's cousin) go from $189 to $499. That Z-6 at $499 is incredible.
[file]12090[/file] [file]12092[/file]
http://www.rondomusic.com/Bassguitarfretless.html
This basic short scale 4 string fretless bass with neck markers e.g. costs an amazing $99, a long scale 5 string is $109.
[file]12086[/file]
Kurt is the owner, he answers all e-mails, and he's a gem.
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud-Obsessed
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | As you say, they don't pay attention to guitarists either, so it has nothing to do with what is foreign, for these $#@ people you're just another
"playing for spare change" musician -- a public park may not be the best venue. Of course people in Berkeley will stop and listen to anything, and
want to chat, they're curious, friendly and they have time.
It would be more significant to play where busy people expect legitimate music and see how they react. It might also be diplomatic to identify the
instrument as simply "a fretless lute", and not "an oud" with all the background information this requires. They have heard of Lutes, and they might
like the sound, but they might not be particularly interested in lectures on native instruments of far away lands.
It's hard for people to understand how big and self-contained a country the United States is. The following is a true story. A young woman who was
studying at Berkeley was telling a (very) young California student that she was from Poland. He asked if they spoke English there. She said "not
generally". So, the kid asked, how do they communicate? This is hard to comprehend for most people in the world, but is not uncommon reasoning among
(not too bright) people who have never set foot outside the States. They see that immigrants arrive, and gradually learn to communicate (in English).
They don't give much thought to what they did before, but it's clear that they didn't "know how to communicate".
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Hi,
What I meant was that "middle America" is not at all hip to JAZZ. They were always happy to listen to guitar when I was playing rock-n-roll. I never
put out a jar or my case for tips when I play in public--I don't think my level of skill merits it yet.
I have always had mixed results from decribing the oud as a "lute," especially outside of the most cosmopolitan US regions. The usual reaction I've
gotten is, "Lute? Is that like a flute?" 
When I was in graduate school at Berkeley, I met many politically active undergraduates who stated in essence that the US has no folk culture. I
tried to explain to them that we certainly have many folk cultures, but our generation is woefully ignorant of them. I have a 5-disc collection of
Leadbelly recordings waiting on the shelf for when they become age-appropriate, so that my son doesn't grow up completely ignorant. 
Peace,
John
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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"A Lute is like a Flute"? -- well, I can see why a tip jar is entirely pointless, they could never find it, since you must be playing for the BLIND.
I suppose the simplest concession is to say the oud is "like a fretless 12 string guitar". If they ask what "fretless" means, you can tell them it's a
way to not worry about details so much.
But you raise a great subject. Is Country & Western "folk music"? Is Bluegrass folk music? Is Arabic oud music more "folk"? Was Farid more like
Leadbelly, or Bing Crosby, or Segovia, or Gene Autry or Les Paul? I suspect the oud in the Middle East covers much the same wide range as the guitar
does in America. What sort of role do various types of music fill in different cultures?
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud-Obsessed
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | "A Lute is like a Flute"? -- well, I can see why a tip jar is entirely pointless, they could never find it, since you must be playing for the BLIND.
I suppose the simplest concession is to say the oud is "like a fretless 12 string guitar". If they ask what "fretless" means, you can tell them it's a
way to not worry about details so much.
But you raise a great subject. Is Country & Western "folk music"? Is Bluegrass folk music? Is Arabic oud music more "folk"? Was Farid more like
Leadbelly, or Bing Crosby, or Segovia, or Gene Autry or Les Paul? I suspect the oud in the Middle East covers much the same wide range as the guitar
does in America. What sort of role do various types of music fill in different cultures?
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Those are very interesting questions.
I think most traditional definitions of "folk music" focus on the concepts of "no known composer" and "oral transmission," though I'm sure there are
other characteristics used. The original concept is very Western, drawing a sharp distinction between "folk," "popular," and "classical" musics which
doesn't really apply to non-Western music, where the boundaries are more flexible and fluid.
I do think that pieces of music can start out in one genre and gradually become another, as the composer is forgotten and/or as the song becomes know
with significant variations. Changes in contemporary styles and tastes can also affect how we perceive music. Would we consider John Dowland's
music "pop music" today? It certainly was in its day. Do Charlie Parker's recordings still sound like "modern" jazz to most ears? And you know that
old joke, "Yesterday's rock-n-roll music is today's country and western."
Regarding Farid, he was certainly a "pop" musician in his day, though he did compose and record music that might be better described as "light classic
music" (e.g., "Tutah"). However, given the rise of heavily synthesized Arabic (and Turkish, Persian, Israeli, etc.) pop music, there is something
about Farid's music that sounds to me downright "folkloric."
Peace,
John
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ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 464
Registered: 9-14-2009
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Mood: No Mood
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A lot too depends on exactly what aspect of the music you look at. I.E. Farid's songs were often sad love songs which is a trademark of "pop" versus
any other genre, but in terms of instrumentalism it was somewhat "classical" due to the orchestra versus the synthh. So genre definitions are not
necessarily exclusive of each other. Then you have to consider the extent to which western genre labels are dependent on the evolution of the west:
classical music is only classical because of the way western music evolved rather than any of its objective traits. The objective traits of the time
were tacked on to the definition because of what came afterwards.
Disclaimer: I know little to nothing about music history, so I could be dead wrong.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich |
I think most traditional definitions of "folk music" focus on the concepts of "no known composer" and "oral transmission," ... |
I myself associate "folk" with traditional popular music with acoustic instruments, no matter if the composer is known or not, if it's a "historical"
song or a new one. When we talk about "Irish folk" for example, I see a guitar, a flute, a violin and a bodran and I have that typical sound in mind,
that makes your foot stomp
| Quote: | | ... which doesn't really apply to non-Western music, where the boundaries are more flexible and fluid. |
Really? So far I didn't have this impression, when listening to arabian music ... there also seem to be different kinds ... traditionell, commercial,
Techno influenced, etc. ... not really that different to Europe and the USA, I think. And even in Western music I see "fluid boundaries" here and
there.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
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Mood: Dreaming
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I am happy that this post brought so many replies. Interesting to see where the post went; fretless guitars and the like. I was going to go that
route until I thought "why"..I should just let the oud be an oud and a guitar be a guitar and yes, I have a few CDs by Erkan Ogur (spelling) and love
his work. To solve my problem of wanting to learn to read music on the oud and be a real serious student of Arabic music, I commissioned Faruk
Turunz to build me an oud where the wood was tuned to resonate as tuned to a guitar so that I can read better. I took deliver of this magnificent
instrument this past weeken when he was in New York for the luthier show. I am so looking forward to learning the great works of Arabic and Ottoman
music, and being able to play one day in and ensemble and perhaps the Arabic Music orchestra. My poor reading was holding me back. Since I am a fair
reader on the guitar, now I will be able to read on the oud.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Good Morning!
| Quote: Originally posted by shareen | | To solve my problem of wanting to learn to read music on the oud and be a real serious student of Arabic music, I commissioned Faruk Turunz to build
me an oud where the wood was tuned to resonate as tuned to a guitar so that I can read better. |
Because I'm a 12-string guitarist, who wants to learn oud, I find this very interesting, but strange too. What do you exactly mean with "read"?
Because you wanted an oud, that sounds more guitar-like ... I bet like in THIS video, where I hear a slight sound similarity to a flamenco guitar ... I think it has nothing to do with notation?
But I don't understand, why this should help to get a better feeling for the intrument. I would have expected, that a wider neck and a tuning similar
to guitar (e.g. C-E-A-D-G-C) might be helpful for the step from guitar to oud, but the sound characteristics?
Maybe further explanations might help me understand.
Back to the original topic ... acceptance of oud in the Western world and how well-known it is (not):
I think the problem is, that the oud is mainly used in the Western world for arabian music and sometimes Jazz. But now even Rock bands like Richie
Blackmoore's Night begin using the oud and that's the way needed, to make this instrument well-know in the Western world, we have to use it for
Western music.
I'll wait for the day, when the oud will be first heard in a Top Ten hit ... that will be the day it will become well-known in the western world and
many, many non-arabs will want to learn it
So far it will only remain an insider instrument for non-arabs.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
I think the problem is, that the oud is mainly used in the Western world for arabian music and sometimes Jazz. But now even Rock bands like Richie
Blackmoore's Night begin using the oud and that's the way needed, to make this instrument well-know in the Western world, we have to use it for
Western music.
I'll wait for the day, when the oud will be first heard in a Top Ten hit ... that will be the day it will become well-known in the western world and
many, many non-arabs will want to learn it |
Well, there's this (around 2:08 . . . I listened so you don't have to!)
Alicia Keys' new album (apparently coming out in December) has some work by Bassam Saba, presumably on oud/nay/buzuq/violin.
I don't think it's going to make oud the next big thing though.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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No, definitly not, because her fans will concentrate more on her, than her musicians and their instruments. But it's a further "baby step" to the
oud's "fame" in the Western world.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by shareen | | I was going to go that route until I thought "why"..I should just let the oud be an oud and a guitar be a guitar . . . To solve my problem of wanting
to learn to read music on the oud and be a real serious student of Arabic music, I commissioned Faruk Turunz to build me an oud where the wood was
tuned to resonate as tuned to a guitar so that I can read better. . . . Since I am a fair reader on the guitar, now I will be able to read on the oud.
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I'm sorry to say, Shareen, but that doesn't make much sense to me.
I also play guitar, and reading on an oud-tuned-oud was never any problem. It's so similar to guitar anyway, and the oud has much more limited
possibilities for reading than guitar (fewer positions, fingerings, etc.)
If you want to let the oud be an oud, why would you tune it like a guitar? You wish to play in an ensemble and be a serious student, so you realize
that the particular keys emphasized in Arabic music (mainly C, D, and G) are built around the resonances of the way the oud is tuned. That's why
violinists retune to play Arabic music.
I understand why someone might tune the oud like a guitar (well, sort of), but not someone who really wants to play Arabic music.
I'm sorry if this sounds like criticism, that's not my intention. I'm genuinely perplexed by your comments.
By the way, I agree with you about Western audiences being receptive to the oud. One thing I think people need to consider is that most Americans
really don't care about music at all. They may listen to whatever's on the radio as background, or like a few songs they remember from when they were
a kid, but overall most Americans are quite alienated from music--regardless of what kind or what instrument it's played on.
I bet most Americans couldn't name more than six instruments, and couldn't reliably identify a recording of more than three (drums, piano, and
harmonica are my bets--they can't even consistently distinguish a guitar from a bass or a saxophone from a trumpet).
I used to teach a general music appreciation class in a community college and was stunned at how no one could tell what instruments they were
listening to (in a class of about 35, there were maybe 2 who could! By the end of the semester, about 15 could confidently identify more than 4
instruments).
However, among that minority group who is interested in music, most people I've encountered really dig the oud when they're exposed to it.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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In times of MP3 and many artists being more fake, than a real musicians/composers and/or singers, you won't be astonished, that it is not much
different in Europe.
Music is mainly a product nowadays, not art ... though not always.
Regarding to check out, which instrument people hear, many Europians seem to have a slight advantage against Americans because of musical lessons in
school. But I think, it's not much better, than what you described.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
Posts: 563
Registered: 1-3-2004
Location: italy
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Mood: what?
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people who post to music instrument sites - oud included - are different from those who don't - we take note of things which are inconsequental to
others. a sampling of italian popular music will put you to sleep as well - most people are interested in banal sentimentality and
middle-of-the-road, more-of-the-same musical accompaniment - not musicality.
years ago, i asked a friend of ours who was living in cairo to pick up "something" i could play with a group of medieval singers we have here in the
village. what she produced was a drop-dead, absolutely gorgeous oud. while i like a good tune - one i can play - i'm not that much interested in
arab music.
so ... you could say my interest in the oud was more happenstance than diligence ... more a case of good fortune ... serendipity - than following a
distant star.
many here in italy have no idea what it is - some will guess it's some sort of lute but most have never seen it before.
it's all folk music to me. i play medieval, european music on it and if asked ... nicely ... i will even play a few buddy holly and hank williams
tunes for you on it - nothing exotic or strange about that, now ... is there?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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The problems we are skirting are so severe that I'm not sure even what to think. We're talking about issues that are totally beyond the interest or
comprehension of "normal people". That in itself is a serious issue.
I don't think it's very different between America and Europe.
The people in a group like this are very different from the average level. Obviously for westerners to take the trouble of learning something so
completely different from the music they know is evidence of something worthwhile, as is the willingness of those who know it to share it. Thank you
all for being here!
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreaming
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To Brian Prunka on his comment:
Brian, I will explain. First of all, I am blessed to live in a musical bubble: the Hudson Valley. There are many artists, musicians and other free
thinking out of the box people are absolutely facinated with the oud. They can't get enough of my rudimentary playing. I tell them I play oud like
George Harrison played sitar and they get it. For the real stuff, listen to Simon or Ara or Marcel, etc. etc. But I am getting people interested in
it, which I think is great. Regarding tuning the oud like a guitar to play in ensembles. What can I tell you. I am a jerk with reading. Always
have been. It's a challenge for me to read anyway. To have to transpose reading on the oud from my guitar brain is nearly impossible for me. What you
are saying, however, would neccicate Turkish oud players to use and Arabic oud to play Arabic music? A note is a note, is it not? Concert pitch is
concert pitch. If you are talking about having to play Arabic music with an Arabic oud for the low resonances of an Arabic oud, then that is a
different story. Why can't I tune my oud to to make it easy for me to play the music? What does it matter? I am not looking for it to sound or play
like a guitar. I only want to make it easier for me to read music.
I appreciate your thoughts and really welcome them.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Using a different tuning is not the point, because there are several different arabian tunings used nowadays.
But the guitar tuning doesn't seem to suit arabian music too well, because it's harmonies are mainly based on C, D and G, as Brian already mentioned.
That's why I thought C-E-A-D-G-C might be a good compromise, which is similar to guitar, but also a common arabian tuning.
I'm curious, what Brian will tell.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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