Scolecite - 8-18-2010 at 04:45 AM
I am a beginner so I am looking for ANY advice or comments about this OUD I purchaced.
http://arabinstruments.com/112730/Ahmed-Abdel-Halim-Professional-Ou...
1. What do you think of the materials used in the construction? Is there anything at all you can tell me about the wood choices?
2. I noticed it looks like there is more room towards the left side of the fret board in the picture to the left of the bottom string? Is this done on
purpose? Is this so I can use 12 strings if I want, or is it just out of symmetry? Im afraid Im getting paranoid now that I bought it.
3. The fingerboard seems broad compared to some other ouds Ive seen. Is this desireable? Are only the ultra professional ones the ones with the skinny
necks?
4. If you are so inclined if you listen to the sound file I would love to hear what you think about the sound of this oud (not that you can tell from
a video! but maybe an impression of the oud). And maybe having heard it, a set of strings that might work well on it.
THANKS!!!
Can't wait to get my new O U D 
fernandraynaud - 8-18-2010 at 05:30 AM
They are reputable vendors, worst case you pay for shipping to return it.
You should ask them about stringing preferably before they ship it. Hard to see on photo. Many ouds ship with 5 courses with 10 strings but bridge is
drilled and nut is grooved for 6 courses 11 strings.
It looks like the fingerboard width on the bowl is ornamental and does not affect width of playing area.
The woods etc seem ok.
Scolecite - 8-18-2010 at 05:42 AM
Here is a better picture of the strings.
http://www.arabinstruments.com/image/users/112730/ftp/my_files/Abde...
There are only 9 strings! What does this mean did I screw the pooch on this one? If so I want to cancel asap if I made a mistake.
fernandraynaud - 8-18-2010 at 06:00 AM
To be honest I think you might want to take a little more time to really look around. They have very little inventory at this time.
Scolecite - 8-18-2010 at 06:03 AM
I have looked around, noone seems to have any ouds in stock. I mean is there something wrong with this oud or a reason I shouldnt get it? It has an
ebony fretboard and walnut. The only other option are the GEF's. Mid-East makes them but most are out of stock. Is there a better option for ~$500,
you can always PM me.
Thanks
fernandraynaud - 8-18-2010 at 06:12 AM
It's not uncommon for the lower cost ouds to ship with 5 courses/9 strings. They usually drill for 11 or 12 but the nut can be a headache as there are
players who like the 9 string setup. If you can, I would take longer to fully understand all the issues. $400 is a tough price point. At the $500
level you can usually find an oud that doesn't start out needing mods.
fernandraynaud - 8-18-2010 at 06:13 AM
Make your email visible in your profile or put it here. You are in too much of a hurry. It takes a little time.
Scolecite - 8-18-2010 at 07:29 AM
I have sent you an email.
jack - 8-18-2010 at 08:56 AM
The oud is fine. I purchased a similar oud from the same company about 4 months ago. It is a wonderful value. They ship with an Egyptian set up of
strings (5 courses). Just order another set of full strings and restring it with the full 11 strings (6 courses). The company is legitimate, and the
quality per cost is good. I recommend keeping and loving the oud.
Scolecite - 8-18-2010 at 09:20 AM
Thanks Jack! I will get full nights of sleep now till my Oud arrives. You got a Ahmed Abdel Halim Oud correct?
I liked that it has an ebony fingerboard, I thought that was good value, not that you can count on that alone.
jack - 8-18-2010 at 12:09 PM
No, I purchased a similar oud made by Gawharet El Fan, but they are astonishingly alike in materials, build, and price. My friend bought one as well,
and it is a very nice oud also, so I think you'll be quite pleased, as they sell good value ouds for the price.
fernandraynaud - 8-18-2010 at 04:19 PM
Each oud is different. These are not made on assembly lines. It's too hard to tell the stringing options (or anything else) from their photos.
Normally you will have the choice of 5 or 6 course stringing. But even if the nut is only slotted for 9/10 strings, as happened on my first oud, it's
not a big job to re-slot it or replace it, it's been discussed on the forum.
I didn't mean to suggest there's anything wrong with this particular instrument, only that if you aren't sure, and your choices are limited, it's
usually a good idea to take your time. But since you're buying from a reputable store, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. When are you expecting
it?
Scolecite - 8-18-2010 at 06:46 PM
Fernand it should be here next week. Im sure its gonna have slots for more strings that would explain why there is more space on the fretboard. I like
the Ouds materials and looks and its in my pricepoint. Im familiar with arabinstruments I got my darbuka from them so Im not worried about the
seller.
I picked up some Pyramid Orange strings, to restring it when it comes in and better quality plectrum. I already have some fingerboard oil for the
fingerboard. I was thinking of getting that violin peg grease and mix it with Ivory soap for the pegs if you think thats a good idea.
Anything else I should think about?
fernandraynaud - 8-18-2010 at 11:56 PM
The violin peg grease is usually too slick. You don't put soap on unless it really needs it, and then you mix it with chalk, or they will slip. Just
leave the pegs alone for openers. Raw wood on wood is often the best.
Many fingerboards come varnished for looks. The best thing to do in that case is to sand/clean off the varnish as it will just slough off and get in
the way. If it's a good ebony it doesn't need any treatment beyond that, I'd leave it raw so you can better observe it. If after playing it a lot for
a couple of weeks or a month you see that the wound strings are wearing grooves in the fingerboard, then you can consider coating it with a hard
finish.
There are many different materials and shapes for the reesha. There is no single "best", though horn is one if the finest sounding materials. The
smart thing is to get as many different types as you can find, and some sandpaper to shape them. Different ouds sound best with different reeshas, and
it's also an important aspect of finding your personal touch.
A lot of people approach the oud initially as another string instrument. But they fairly quickly discover it has a specific language that it "wants to
speak", and that is the traditional Maqam system, which goes back to Byzantine and ancient Greek theories and is the foundation of all Arabic, Persian
and Ottoman music. The way I see it, the oud opens up an opportunity to learn something a Western musician has never been exposed to, and it's a
precious gift. I'd recommend OudProf's "learn maqamat" DVD, and ordering it now, as it ships from Jordan. It shows a lot of basic material about how
to handle the oud, and also ceates a great context for practice, in addition to teaching the Maqamat. It costs less than a single lesson from a pro,
and unless you plan to take regular lessons from someone who knows the whole tradition, you will get a lot of mileage out of it, it's invaluable. Look
it up on ebay. Marina's book is also useful to get started, it comes with a DVD, and can be picked up quickly, but OudProf's DVD is something you can
use for a long long time.
I'm excited for you and hope this baby meets your expectations. Look up some of the desirable measurements I listed in a previous post, like the neck
lean-back from the soundboard plane. Since the neck/bridge are not adjustable, the action as measured at the neck-body junction is the most critical,
and must be comfortable. If that's higher than 3.5 mm, you may find it hard to play, and get discouraged. I prefer 2.5 mm, though some people like
even 4 mm. Make an assessment before you change anything, I'm not being pessimistic, and not suggesting anything will be wrong, but unless you're a
born tunkerer, there is no point in keeping an instrument that won't be a joy or will require a lot of work.
And remember to play your oud with the face vertical, or you will have a hard time unlearning a bad posture 
Scolecite - 8-19-2010 at 04:59 AM
Ok I thought my Ahmed Abdel Halim might have come with an unfinished fretboard but after seeing two identical ouds (sans decoration) I don't think its
the case. Videos are here please mention anything of note sound wise/quality wise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J85STeYmbCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYG3hWhKU5I
I play guitar, so I know how important action is. I will make sure the action is less than 3.5mm at the neck-body junction then make my decision from
there.
I did read about keeping the face vertical, Im a stickler on guitar when it comes to body positioning so Im going to keep it strict on oud as well
I want to speak the oud's language. I have therefore just ordered OudProf's Learn Maqamat on your advice. I am familiar with eastern music (from
playing doubmek) and I have no illusions of grandeur. Haha, but I know what you are talking about.
I have searched your previous threads for the desirable measurements you listed in a previos post, but I could not find the information. Can you
provice a link? The information you have shared with me so far means the world to me. Like I mentioned I have already purchached that DVD. Your advice
is going somewhere and matters in my real life, its not just going into cyberspace. So Thank You!
Pretty soon along with your help Ill be 
fernandraynaud - 8-19-2010 at 05:35 AM
Glad to be of help. I can identify with your anticipation! I know you will love that DVD. It includes a "pocket Maqam PDF booklet" for your mobile,
and a great Excel spreadsheet that allows searching for Maqamat based on root note and intervals.
As to links, here is one:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10924#pid74...
and another (down the page)
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10524&p...
The "scooping" of the soundboard in front of the bridge is especially pronounced on Turkish ouds. It's not an accident, it's how they keep the bridge
low but provide enough clearance to play. Good Arabics will also show concavity there, though not as deep. A perfectly level soundboard is an
expedient construction technique on low cost ouds and requires other compensation to achieve a good clearance and low action.
Scolecite - 8-19-2010 at 07:14 AM
Cool there is good advice there. I also emailed Sukar for a price on the Model 1 Oud. If its a good price with shipping Ill refuse my package and just
get that instead. I won't be able to deal with high action and crappy pegs. Ive already lost all my hair from dealing with crappy doumbeks.
fernandraynaud - 8-19-2010 at 07:35 AM
Sukar doesn't sell direct ever as far as I know, but there are people i know selling them. I'll ask one of them to contact you by email.
Scolecite - 8-19-2010 at 07:38 AM
Ok thanks 
fernandraynaud - 8-19-2010 at 01:01 PM
In all fairness, there is nothing to indicate that the A.A.H. oud you ordered suffers from any particular problem.
Scolecite - 8-20-2010 at 04:43 AM
Instruments from the east tend to suffer from lackofISO9000itus. I think it's
your experience and frustration with crappy ouds has you erring on the side of caution and predictability. Theres no comparison to pulling your hair
out trying to tune or get the action right vs. buying a known name and joyfully playing it the second you get it.
salim charaf - 8-20-2010 at 05:51 AM
an oud in walnut is always good for a beginner, I think you have nothing to regret, the luthier is honest, he is well-known, he displays things unlike
some "crooks" selling under unknown names or perhaps even using , when they are musicians, their "label" to abuse the frail beginners, all the best
for your future mastering of the oud, can you contact me on boucharaf@voila.fr, I perhaps have importants things to add that may be useful to you as a
beginner, salim
Scolecite - 8-21-2010 at 10:35 AM
I got my new oud, one thing that bothers me is it said it had an ebony fingerboard and clearly it does not. Its either walnut or padauk like the rest
of the oud. It was the main reasons I got this oud over some others. What do you think I should do? Im kinda ticked off.
This oud is lightweight its like a feather. Not sure if thats good or bad. If I threw it in the air I swear it would start floating.
Here is the link for the oud that clearly shows it has a Ebony fretboard
http://www.arabinstruments.com/112730/Ahmed-Abdel-Halim-Professiona...
I have it tuned F A D G C ( 9 strings) as thats how it came and the regular tuning was too sloppy. My pyramid ornges are in the mail hopefully.
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2 Dime clearance at the neck joint. I think thats good, they squeeze under the strings just slightly.
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Close up of the "EBONY" fretboard.
Headstock
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Neck Joint
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Thanks salim charaf for the offer, Im sure Ill be contacting you in the future.
Everyone: If there is anything at all you can tell me about this oud from the pictures good or bad please tell me.
fernandraynaud - 8-21-2010 at 01:10 PM
Light is good. A good Turkish probably weighs half of this one! Take it easy. Everybody who is used to guitar finishes goes through a bit of culture
shock. The finish is typical. You need to reset your standards a bit when dealing with midrange ouds. The little stuff doesn't matter, and this is
where you get your tools and sandpaper out, and save a bit of money. If you want a perfect finish right out of the box, you have to get a boutique oud
or an expensive Turkish, at a lot higher cost. I am puzzled by the "inserts" on the pegbox, it's more common as a repair. Do the pegs turn reasonably
smoothly and do they hold if you push them in? Is the fingerboard level? This is the type of fingerboard that can use a coating, but it may sound
better than a hard ebony. How does it sound (keeping in mind all new ouds need time to "open up")? I can't see the nut, are there grooves for the 6th
course? Can you post more and better pictures pls, like the nut, the bridge, the soundboard surface, the oud from the side so we can see the
flatness/curvature of the face?
P.s. It's exactly what I expected, and I'm amazed at the fast shipping. What you should do is give yourself a little time to make a decision. No oud
in this price range will be finished like an assembly line Chinese guitar. These are personal instruments made with simple tools. So take a deep
breath and try to be impartial, spend a lot of time with it, see how the instrument responds to being played with a positive emotional set.
Scolecite - 8-21-2010 at 03:20 PM
EDIT: Imagshack should let you view fullsize but its not working for some reason. To view them you would have to click on the thumbnail then when the
photo comes up save it to your desktop to view fullsize.
Ok here we go.
The fretboard itself is flat. The pegs turn well and when I push it they hold their tune on the 9 strings but Im worried about that rightmost unused
strings as the last string notch is right on the edge of the nut, where as on the left side (bass strings) there is room.
In this first image I drew a line to show how uneven the nut is where it meets the fretboard.
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This second image is just a photo of the headstock.
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This 3rd image is to show the concave nature of the soundboard, using the only straight thing I had, a white plastic coat hanger.
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4th image is to show lines I drew in on the 6th course which is very much to the right of the headstock. Alot more than the other side, if I did have
strings there they would have to do a HARD left to get over to where the pegs are. AND also the last string would be very close to the right edge of
the fretboard. Image 8 shows more detail from another angle.
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5th and 6th image is the bridge. It appears to be peeling up but the varnish spots are uncracked so it didnt move since it was made.
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7th image is picture to show twisting nature of headstock. Top line is to show how one side is built higher than the other, and the long diagonal line
is to show how the headstock is twisted.
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8th image is another look at the nut showing where that last course would be and also how it is uneven on another different plane.
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Well that about does it. I hope these are good pics and explanations. I appreciate you taking the time to review the photos.
fernandraynaud - 8-21-2010 at 04:13 PM
You need to turn the brightness way down on your camera so we can see the nut details.
Also some of the images won't load off imgshack for me. Like #8 for instance.
http://img594.imageshack.us/i/1000472a.jpg/
Is it my popup-blocker? Check it pls.
Scolecite - 8-21-2010 at 05:46 PM
I put in the two black lines where the grooves were on the nut to the left and the other black line at the bottom to so you can see how level it is.
(For #8)
Imageshack isnt working for me either, with no popup blocker. You can right click on the photo and "save as" to your desktop though once you clicked
into imageshack.
fernandraynaud - 8-21-2010 at 09:27 PM
Can you please remove these huge photos now?
they are causing problems with subsequent posts.
OK, now I see it. I think you have to do some
level-headed thinking here.
This is an overpriced "Muhamed Ali Street oud".
You can buy it in Cairo for less than $100.
Of course markup is the nature of business,
but shame on Arabinstruments for misleading people
with the description:
Professional Egyptian Oud By Ahmed Abdel Halim
It's supreme quality manifest in every possible way.
The Oud is made of Walnut and Paldouk wood and has a perfect finish.
The craft is undoubtedly unique and one of a kind.
It's structure and texture are inimitable.
Sadly, this is the standard bullcrap of the bazaar.
Of course the fingerboard is not ebony.
But that's not very important. That nut is a bit of a riddle:
is Ahmed visually challenged?
And what IS that spongiform substance it's made of?
The neck seems good, the action is great, the soundboard
looks OK, the bowl is nice, the bridge seems alright.
The fact the pegbox sits at an angle is not critical
as long as you can fix the nut.
What I would do is try to work with them and get some
money back, as they misled you in several respects in
the item description, including the ebony fingerboard,
and you will have to "get the nut fixed". At say $300
plus shipping, that's par. Or maybe they'll let you
have the next oud at a deep discount. If you paid with
Paypal, you have leverage that they don't want to resist.
If they don't want to be reasonable, send it back, if
they won't let you do that, file a Paypal complaint.
If you can work it out, it's probably worth keeping as
you can spend twice as much to get say a Sukar.
And it seems there are many things right with this oud,
in spite of your initial impression. For a "diamond in the
rough" it doesn't need a lot of work. Usually there are
problems like a high action that are much harder to fix.
You have to figure it out. The fact it's light is definitely
a plus. How does it sound? Does the oud come to life a
nd vibrate when you play it, or does it sit there like
a kitchen cabinet or a dead dog?
From what I can see, and you're the only one who can
determine the feasibility, the nut can be replaced and
leveled without losing more than a few millimeters of
fingerboard, which doesn't matter, as there are no
frets and the "seventh fret" at the neck-body junction
is seldom more accurate than that. You get a bone nut
from a guitar shop, get your files and sandpaper out
and get to work. Do you have some tools and nimble hands?
You won't be "fretting" in the first few millimeters of
the fingerboard, so you can use filler or you can cut
back the left side of the fingerboard. Don't worry
about the pegbox being a bit crooked, that's often the case.
Then the other thing I would do is sand and wash (alcohol?)
the varnish off the fingerboard (careful you don't create dips).
Then sand it smooth and level with a sanding block, and
apply something like the TruOil that they use for rifle stocks.
The will give you a better sustain and prevent premature wear.
After working with several brands of Tung Oil finish, I
think TruOil will probably be better, as it sets faster.
Then personally I'd level the varnish on the soundboard
with some fine steel wool until it turns satin.
But it's hard to see, maybe it doesn't need it.
You have a few days' work ahead of you, but it could
have been a LOT worse. You just have to see what
Arabinstruments' position is, and how you feel about
the instrument once you're over the initial anger.
Of course if you can afford to just send this one
back and start looking for something between $500 and $1000,
maybe you want to go that route. But keep in mind
that it's true that most Arabic ouds do suffer from
a bit of ISO9000 deficit. You can spend more money
and not be a lot better off. I wouldn't mess with
any of the Gawaret El Fans or any of that. If
Arabinstruments has a Sukar coming, they might give you a special price on it.
But, hey, have you seen this one? OudProf usually sells
much more expensive ouds, and this looks like a good
deal if the shipping can be worked out (he usually
has expensive shipping):
http://cgi.ebay.com/High-Quality-Oud-Ud-Aoud-/250685855766?pt=LH_De...
It has a lot of Turkish characteristics, but it
sounds at least half-Arabic.
And there's this, whoa! It looks like a Sukar Model
8 with a long fingerboard:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Syrian-Oud-/150481334840?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
If he can confirm that label inside says Sukar,
and since shipping is included, it's worth doing the
"buy it now" pronto, Sukars are in demand and bidding
vultures could easily drive the price into the $700 range.
Heck you could drive over to Boston and pick it up,
maybe he'll give you a discount?
Anyway .. best of luck and use yer head.
Scolecite - 8-22-2010 at 06:37 AM
Thanks Im looking into returning it and getting another one. I took a gamble and lost, but learned so much (from you) in the process.
fernandraynaud - 8-22-2010 at 04:11 PM
As long as you don't fish in the same general waters -- as you could easily come up with one that needs more work!
Scolecite - 9-8-2010 at 04:24 AM
So I was going to return the Oud, turns out shipping was way too expensive. So I decided to fix up the oud. I contacted arabinstruments.com about it
but they were only willing to give me a $35 refund(oh and $10 set of strings), kinda crappy for how the nut needs to get fixed and the fingerboard was
so uneven at the top. It WILL be a professional instrument but as I recieved it, it was NOT a professional instrument by a long shot.
Arabinstruments.com did not care about how they misadvertised it as a professional instrument, or how they misadvertised it as having an Ebony
fingerboard. They did give me a small refund, however they made out like bandits.
Be aware that if you buy through arabinstruments.com you cannot dispute their claims since they don't use paypal, they have their own internal payment
system. If I had used paypal I would have had some leverage since they blatently misadvertised this oud as having an Ebony fretboard (which it did
not) and it being a high quality professional instrument, that couldnt even BE STRUNG with a full course of strings in the condition I got it.
So far I have sanded down the fingerboard getting rid of the laquer, and applied Tru-Oil, its looking AWESOME, its 100X better so far. Next will be to
file the top of the fingerboard evenly across, and fashion a new nut or salvage and fix the old one. Then it will be I believe a sweet oud. I will
update when I get it all stringed up and how it compares to my Sukar which fernandraynaud helped me find, thanks!. Least now I know what a
professional oud looks and sounds like.
BaniYazid - 9-8-2010 at 08:12 AM
Hello Scolecite
sad story.
I bought a cheap used oud last month and have some repairs to do. I unglued re-glued the pegbox, reamed the peg holes and adjust new pegs. Tow days
ago I've made an ebony nut to replace the poor pvc nut (I first made 2 nuts with a piece of oak to train).
I think it's better to make a new nut, it depends on the material with which yours is made, as fernanraynaud says you can buy a blank ebony or bone
nut and make the string guides by yourself.
There is nothing difficult in this reparations, just go slowly and full of love.
Regards 
jack - 9-8-2010 at 08:55 AM
Sorry to hear of your experience. I had a very good experience with arabinstruments.com, as did my friend, but they're certainly off my list of
trusted merchants now. False advertising just don't cut it.
fernandraynaud - 9-8-2010 at 04:57 PM
I had an experience with a different vendor where even though Paypal was used, the delivery and discussions dragged beyond the time limit for redress.
By the time I had given them every fair chance to work it out, and was fed up with the foot-dragging, I found (surprise!) that the time was up. At
that point you have to get very creative in applying pressure, and this is clearly something most people are not prepared to handle.
Scolecite did what most buyers do. In his case it might make sense, as he can do the "repairs", and has the time & energy to do them, but in many
other cases it's simply a loss. I still have my first oud, and will fix it up "any day now". For everybody the simple situation is one where the
seller makes a reasonable profit and the buyer is reasonably satisfied. But if there are unexpected defects or damage, things get complicated, even if
both parties try to be fair.
What I have most trouble with is guys who sell instruments they know are unlikely to meet the high expectations they have very deliberately created.
They have balanced the probabilities, and count on most people not being too picky, or in any case giving up when faced with the options.
For one, insurance is largely a myth. Realistically who's going to go collect from a freight forwarder in Outer Mongolia, or the state postal service
in Timbuktu? And how do you prove value, where the damage occurred, etc?
Even if a return is theoretically possible, in most cases it's completely impractical, because an oud, e.g. shipped from the US overseas, in spite of
being light, just happens to be at the limit of postal dimensions. If you pack in cardboard & foam, it's too big. If you crate tight, it's too
heavy and/or might not be protection enough. The "overnight" services charge more than the oud is worth, even for slower service. Freight
consolidators generally work only with professionals. There are not many locations on the planet from which an oud can be easily dispatched overseas
at reasonable cost. Be aware, and please consider various "what if" scenarios ahead of time.
