Mike's Oud Forums

Slipping peg?

leegee - 3-28-2011 at 04:15 AM

Hi Oud people

I have an inexpensive oud, and learning is going quite well, except that the highest two of the twelve strings keeps slipping.

I have tried a number of tunings, but it seems unable to hold any note.

Is there something I should do to improve the purchase of the peg? Chalk, maybe? I'm reluctant to take a knife or sandpaper to it with it...

Thanks in anticipation
Lee

Marcus - 3-28-2011 at 05:16 AM

Hi Lee :wavey:
the easy way to solve peg-slipping is to use pegdope
another solution is dry soap+chalk, wich gives you the same result, but it is not so easy to handle. If you try the pegsoap you should be very stingy with it use only very little where the peg touches the wood of the pegbox.

Greetings,
Marcus

leegee - 3-28-2011 at 06:22 AM

Thank you very much, Marcus!

:applause:

Cheers!
Lee

Rafi - 3-28-2011 at 08:04 AM

interested to read reactions and experiences from others here re: pegdope!

it's been really helpful (essential, really) for keeping my inexpensive Turkish oud functioning... allows me to keep it in tune, even in cold dry weather.

when I discussed this with a luthier and oud vendor, and showed him my oud (during a spell of very cold weather when even the peg dope wasn't quite doing the trick) he seemed quite dismayed.

told me that the product was not designed for wooden instruments at all--basically that if my instrument had been worth keeping (and it does have additional issues that keep me shopping for an affordable replacement), it would be best to rebuild or replace the peg head altogether to eliminate the gooey pegdope mess.

am not totally clear about how much this was coming from knowledge about some real drawbacks to using pegdope on ouds, versus motivation to sell me a better instrument (the ones he showed me were quite superior, but out of my price range so far).

thoughts?

Brian Prunka - 3-28-2011 at 08:56 AM

I've never had to use peg dope on any oud, regardless of humidity or temperature. The temperature and humidity are generally not changing much while you're playing, so if your pegs are slipping during playing, it is a different problem (one time I did a performance in a very air-conditioned place, it was 90 degrees outside and every time the door opened my nylon strings would go up 1/4 tone in pitch! But it didn't affect the pegs).
If the pegs were bad enough, I would be inclined to have them refitted or have new pegs fitted.
If the oud wasn't worth that expense, then it would make more sense to buy a better instrument (or if you're so inclined, learning to do it yourself). Buying poor quality instruments costs more money in the long run.

fernandraynaud - 3-29-2011 at 03:57 AM

Although it always comes down to poor contact between peg and hole, pegs slip for many different reasons, so different people have different results. In no case will a lot of any lubricant help.

Once the hole is tapered same as the peg, the objective is to get resistance to initial motion so it doesn't slip, and then a very smooth gliding until the peg stops, and then it sticks again. Natural wood on wood acts like that if the fit is perfect. But often the fit is far from perfect. That's why a trace of chalk is used with a trace of old hard white soap. The chalk is the "brake" sticking, the soap is for gliding while you are changing pitch.

Peg dope works the same. It's a mix of a lubricant and a "sticking-braking" substance. If you use more than a trace on the contact areas, you get a mess in which the lubricating side dominates, and so they slip even more.

fernandraynaud - 3-29-2011 at 04:16 AM

Replacing pegs is an adventure, unfortunately. Beautiful new pegs can be purchased inexpensively, but it's tricky to fit them. You have to decide on the taper, 16:1, 25:1 or 30:1? You need to be using a peg shaver with right taper, or adjustable, and the correct taper reamer. It costs from 80 to 250 dollars for these two tools, I have never seen cheaper than about $80 for the two. Then it's easy to ream the hole too big, and shave the peg too small, so the peg goes too far in, or you even have to start over. That requires inserts in the holes.

So a temporary fix is popular rather than new pegs. If a touch of dope helps, so be it.

Violins have a similar issue, ebony pegs wear the hole faster than rosewood, rosewood wears faster than softer woods. Most old violins have had inserts fitted in the peg holes more than once.

jdowning - 3-30-2011 at 05:23 AM

If the pegs and pegbox are made from the proper woods, straight grained and well seasoned, and are correctly fitted then peg dope should not be required.

If you do plan to refit the pegs or fit new pegs then the only tool that you need to purchase is a violin peg reamer (costing about $35 - $40 for the cheapest brand). The reamer is then used to make a peg shaper or cutter that will then exactly match the taper of the reamer. This is not a difficult tool to make if you have basic woodworking skills. If making this tool presents difficulties then you will likely not be able to make a good job of the peg fitting operation either.
A reamer with a 1:30 taper is standard. Pegs with this taper have less tendency to 'pop out' than pegs with a steeper taper and are easier to fit more precisely.

This is a topic that has been discussed in detail on this forum many, many times in the recent past. Try a Search for either 'peg cutter' or 'peg shaper' (without the ' ') for more detail.

You might also look at the little tutorial at

http://hmi.homewood.net/pegjob

Good luck.

dlaw - 6-13-2011 at 08:42 PM

I recently bought a fairly low end oud at a flea market. The pegs were slipping a lot. I had the idea to install standard style tuners. This may be taboo to most oud aficionados, but it worked.

I purchased tuners that are used on dulcimers from stewmac.com. I bought the Grover Champion Dulcimer/Uke Friction Pegs. I have included here a photo of how it turned out.

OUD_with_Dulcimer_Tuners.jpg - 508kB

myeyes2020 - 6-13-2011 at 09:47 PM

Hi dlaw,

Thanks for sharing! I didnt know these existed. Where they easy to install and do they really not slip at all?

Adel

Very curious

fernandraynaud - 6-14-2011 at 05:49 PM

Can you please tell us more, like the size you got, the cost, how you prepared the holes, and how well it's working. A clear photo would be really nice.

Most oudies dislike machine pegs, planetary or otherwise, because they are heavy and unbalance the instrument. The best planetaries can be light but a dozen + fitting labor often cost more than the oud + the oud player's right kidney.

Friction pegs could be a good solution. But many types of friction pegs have a history of being expensive and/or slipping.

There was a brand of beautiful Japanese violin friction pegs, Gotoh, that looked very much like ebony wood pegs, and at a decent price, but the last time i looked they were still slipping and were being dropped by luthiers. An oud caries about half the tension per string of a Spanish guitar, but I rather think it's more than a dulcimer's. , so im very Very curious how well yours are holding up.

Greg - 6-15-2011 at 02:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by dlaw  
I recently bought a fairly low end oud at a flea market. The pegs were slipping a lot. I had the idea to install standard style tuners. This may be taboo to most oud aficionados, but it worked.

I purchased tuners that are used on dulcimers from stewmac.com. I bought the Grover Champion Dulcimer/Uke Friction Pegs. I have included here a photo of how it turned out.


David, I suspect you may have started something big here. This looks to be an elegant, albeit not cheap, solution to a problem experienced by many people.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Dulcimer_tuners/Grover_Champion_...

Thanks for sharing it.

Regards,

Greg

fernandraynaud - 6-15-2011 at 06:06 AM

So each string is mounted on and pulling on one side of the pegbox? Of course the sum of tensions is the same, but it feels a bit sqirrelly at first glance. Can you please tell us more?

Microber - 6-15-2011 at 07:21 AM

Anyone already tried this
http://www.g-gotoh.com/international/?btp_product=mvt-440t
It is a kind of 'peghed' made in Japan, made of aluminium.
Seems to be cheaper than the original pegheds.
http://ssl.bfit.jp/~jby/index.php?currency=USD&cPath=55



fernandraynaud - 6-15-2011 at 07:51 AM

These are the ones I was talking about. You have to commit by drilling non tapered holes. I had talked to someone from the company and at the time, last year or so, said they had trouble with slipping. Maybe it's fixed now. Certainly a better deal than planetaries like pegheds.

Anybody using them?

Microber - 6-15-2011 at 07:56 AM

Sorry Fernand I didn't read the thread completely.
Nous avons eu la même idée.

Robert