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which wood's the best?

LoveLightPeace - 8-22-2012 at 07:55 AM

Between maple, walnut, and rosewood, which wood:

1-looks the best (for ouds)
2-creates the best sound (for ouds)

?

Brian Prunka - 8-22-2012 at 08:22 AM

Walnut is the most traditional. People get good results with all three, I wouldn't say one is "better" than another, they're all good woods.

Edward Powell - 8-22-2012 at 09:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by LoveLightPeace

Between maple, walnut, and rosewood, which wood:

1-looks the best (for ouds)
2-creates the best sound (for ouds)

?

You left out the most important criteria... the Environment. Using which wood causes the least damage to the environment?

All 3 look and sound great (but different - however the differences are small when considering backs, necks and pegboxes.... greater differences are felt between soundboards).

Using rosewood is generally by far the most harmful for the environment because it generally comes from far away places - also often where those trees are endangered - and also where forestry practices are irresponsible (are forestry practices anywhere responsible??).

So don't use rosewood or buy ouds made of rosewood because this is supporting the destruction of rainforests, endangered species and finally it is very wasteful to have to ship wood long distances....

USE AND SUPPORT THE USE OF LOCAL COMMON WOODS --- GO FOR SOUND, NOT "STATUS WOOD".

ps - I think beech is one of the best woods - sounds great, easy to work with, very strong, it is everywhere and cheap, and looks ok also.... it is so common that is is regularly used for firewood!

jdowning - 8-22-2012 at 12:17 PM

I support Edward's comments about using readily available (and lower cost) local woods.
Beech is a good traditional hardwood to use as is Elm and Walnut (15th C sources).

Rosewoods - like all woods - come in many varieties. Some of these are now plantation grown so are not an environmental threat. Others - like Brazilian rosewood - are now protected and so restricted in availability. Consequently these species can now be very costly.
The other disadvantage of many of the tropical species is that the oils in the wood can be toxic (but not deadly!) on contact resulting in skin and respiratory problems for those sensitive to the oils.
Also the oily woods can cause problems in creating secure glue joints - requiring a chemical degreasing operation prior to gluing.

fernandraynaud - 8-22-2012 at 05:16 PM

As usual these are complicated issues. No harm in subsidizing local woods, but I'm sure the people who rely on sale of specialty woods for a living, and who may be dealing with responsible and renewable sources, may not agree with you. A blanket rejection of rosewood may not be appropriate, and I doubt the custom instrument market would have much impact compared to furniture and flooring anyway.

jdowning - 8-22-2012 at 06:04 PM

Brazilian rosewood - among some other forest grown tropical hardwoods - is already an Appendix 1 CITES endangered species - like ivory - where International trade is banned between countries that have signed the CITES treaty. As far as I am aware that includes the USA.
It is not complicated issue at all and perfectly appropriate - as hopefully those who rely on the sale of specialty woods for a living well understand.

Edward Powell - 8-22-2012 at 07:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

responsible and renewable sources

what does this mean? ...just curious

fernandraynaud - 8-22-2012 at 09:59 PM

I wasn't talking about endangered Brazilian Rosewood, or, heaven forbid, Ivory. Responsible suppliers check their sources, buy from vendors who do the same. They sell wood that is harvested in such a way as to ensure the viability of the plantation. Wood is intrinsically a renewable resource. We all oppose destructive logging, and we like beautiful wood in our instruments. That's not incompatible.

I wonder if bureaucrats like those who raided Gibson Guitar Co aren't mostly interested in an opportunity to justify their salaries and budget. Gibson had been buying ebony from a German company that purchased ebony in Madagascar. Suddenly a new government in Madagascar instituted new restrictions on export of ebony. Gibson continued to purchase ebony from the same German source, which had a valid permit for export of ebony objects from Madagascar. Because the ebony was wood blanks and not "objects", and a proper declaration wasn't filed on entry to the US as to the species of the wood, Gibson was raided for being in possession of plants whose export was banned by a foreign government and which were not properly declared, and six (6) guitars and some pieces of wood confiscated. There's a fine line between protecting endangered species and nonsense.

If you want to talk about insanity in destroying a non-renewable resource, look at burning petroleum distillates to power automobiles. Petroleum is a 100% non-renewable resource, and is the only source for the majority of the materials, organic chemicals and medicines we use. Without petroleum, our hospitals, our technology, everything, comes to a standstill. Yet we burn it! And we waste it, in the unimaginable amounts of plastic we throw into landfills. The abuse of petroleum is a tragedy that will cost us dearly in the long run, yet the only thing people worry about is its price.

fernandraynaud - 8-23-2012 at 09:47 PM

OK, let me be true to character and tell the other side of the story (as I read the affidavits filed by the US Govt). Gibson was buying the ebony from a "serious" company in Hamburg, but the middleman was a Thuman guy who was selling wood out of Africa, even when it was illegal. When the more restrictive ebony export ban was being enacted between 2000 and 2006, Gibson knew exactly what the situation was, including the fact Mr. Thuman didn't have the very hard to get permit to export ebony, just a license to handle manufactured ebony trinkets (which brought more income to Madagascar). There is apparently evidence in the form of e-mails showing Gibson just plain decided to take the risk. So 2300 cubic meters of ebony was shipped by container to Hamburg in 2009 and then as a $76,000 order to New Jersey, with paperwork identifying it as Madagascar ebony, but missing just one specific form. The US Customs service notified Fish and Wildlife who did a thorough investigation, decided they were buying black market ebony, and Gibson was raided by armed local Federal Folks in Tennessee, with 6 guitars, some ebony and computers taken. Under the Lacey Act - confiscation with no recourse.

But then last year they were raided AGAIN by armed agents, and whole pallets of Indian fingerboard blanks taken, this time just on the grounds that formally only thinner finished fingerboards are supposed to be exported from India. But Gibson had been buying these in India for 17 years. This month Gibson paid a $350,000 fine and a $50,000 gift to the Fish and Wildlife to close the matter.

Frankly it sounds like in the first case Gibson was probably wrong, but in the second case the Govt was abusive, probably because the first time they didn't find enough evidence. It's getting crazy. Used instrument dealers are afraid to ship instruments across borders, because anyone could lose an instrument if they cannot show the origin of the wood! Bureaucrats with power are the same everywhere. We start with good intentions, to protect the forests, we give them some authority, and they brutalize us. American enforcers don't understand that regulations in most countries are constantly changing, and not taken literally. The situation in Madagascar is so volatile, it probably wasn't unreasonable for Gibson to think that it was OK to buy from the Germans.

http://www.eia-global.org/PDF/Report--Madagascar--Forest--Aug09--En...

Edward, you may be right. It looks like all rosewoods (Palisander, Cocobolo, etc etc) and ebony are so often harvested illegally they are on the way to being banned in international trade. Sitka Spruce (for soundboards) is on the agenda by some groups. So.. will our whole instruments be made of reprocessed pulp one day?

Aymara - 8-23-2012 at 11:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

So.. will our whole instruments be made of reprocessed pulp one day?

We already have guitar bodies made of steel or "plastic" and I wouldn't be astonished to see an oud with a fiberglas body and a synthetic fingerboard soon.

fernandraynaud - 8-24-2012 at 01:05 AM

But plastic is made from a non-renewable resource, to wit petroleum, that unlike wood can never grow back. Rosewood in plantations is generally harvested in 10-20 years. I'm as horrified as you are about the damage we are doing to the forests. But I am somehow very uncomfortable with the tone this eco-enforcement is taking.

You want to read something scary?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf

AGAPANTHOS - 8-24-2012 at 01:33 AM

In my opinion there is no definite answer to this question because there are noumerous technical factors(the most of which have not quantitave but qualitative nature) that contribute to the sound of a specific oud.
One decisif factor is the coupling of the top with the back of the instrument. This factor is partly quantitave and essentially qualitative.
In general the wood of the back has to have the following proprieties. Has to be dry,well structured, stable , dense, with medium range average stiffness and in the same time with low damping proprieties.
According to my expirience as an instument/oud maker the maple family (acer is the botanical name) is the kind of wood which is blessed by the god, but there are other families of trees that are blessed too, like the mahagonies, the rosewoods e.t.c. e.t.c.
Youcan't have arecire.

Aymara - 8-24-2012 at 02:53 AM

After the Cites discussion here's a LINK of a german guitar luthier explaining the most common tonewoods.

AGAPANTHOS - 8-24-2012 at 03:08 AM

In my opinion there is no definite answer to this question because there are noumerous technical factors(the most of which have not quantitave but qualitative nature) that contribute to the sound of a specific oud.
One decisif factor is the coupling of the top with the back of the instrument. This factor is partly quantitave and essentially qualitative.
In general the wood of the back has to have the following proprieties. Has to be dry,well structured, stable , dense, with medium range average stiffness and in the same time with low damping proprieties.
According to my expirience as an instument/oud maker the maple family (acer is the botanical name) is the kind of wood which is blessed by the god, but there are other families of trees that are blessed too, like the mahagonies, the rosewoods e.t.c. e.t.c.
You can't have a recipe.

Edward Powell - 8-24-2012 at 08:52 AM

I would imagine that OAK must be excellent for fingerboards. In EU oak and beech are so common people burn these for firewood.

Faruk Turunz (and partner Svat Abi) turned me on to using Trespa (yes, cellulose pulp and resin) for fingerboards, and I've used it extensively always with excellent results. Now in fact Faruk has used trespa for some fingerboards also. I don't believe in synthetic materials, [trespa comes in large panels and is used as a construction material] but Faruk buys industry off-cuts which would otherwise be thrown in the trash. . . thereby not only saving an ebony tree, but also reducing toxic waste in our landfills. Furthermore, those who can get past emotional attachments will notice that trespa is actually better than ebony as a fingerboard material for ouds because it is more hard (not so hard as to make the timber sound metalic) - this extra hardness means that your fingerboard will last at least 10X longer without having to be re-flattened. However, it is more work for the luthier to process. For fingerboards and purflings personally I don't see any reason anymore for using ebony as long as we have access to industrial waste off cuts of trespa that would otherwise be trash.

Fernie, as you seem to take offence to an eco-tone, I am somewhat sensitive to terms like "harvested legally". What does this mean "legally"?? Legal according to who? I'd bet the tree didn't agree... and what about people who breathe all the oxygen that tree produces, and air pollution it eats? Within REASON, I don't agree to cutting any trees! Paradoxical statement I know --- but what I mean is that wood is gold and trees stablize and beautify this planet. . . ....of course we are going to cut trees and use wood, but let's do it with the utmost of consciousness and consideration, and not just assume that if it is "legal" it is therefore OK. Afterall raping the Alberta tar sands is "legal".

Also, I don't completely agree that oil is not a renewable resourse, and wood is... it takes a hell of a long long time to grow back old growth wood! In terms of our short lifetimes old growth wood is not a renewable resource - and there is a huge difference between old growth wood and these tooth pick trees that are now "legally harvested"

) Oil on the other hand will "eventually" replenish itself in millions of years so it is therefore "renewable"...... or should I say, in terms of our life time old growth wood is no more renewable than oil.

The main point is to stop using high quality woods for floors and furnature - instrument making is a drop in the bucket compared to that. My previous statement that we should not buy ROSEWOOD ouds was more of a provocation to get y'all thinking about this topic --- in truth, I am happy to see rosewood being used for fine quality hand-made instruments, in fact, that is what it should be used for --- either that, or leave the tree alone!

fernandraynaud - 8-24-2012 at 09:37 AM

Agree with most of your points, I in turn wanted to raise some other issues. One ironic thing is that to extend life of wooden fingerboards we coat them with plastic. Another irony is abusive enforcement activity. But I fully agree with your original intent.

jack - 8-24-2012 at 09:42 AM

Thought I'd dip my feet into this wonderful discussion with some info from the ukulele world. Due to the rising cost of high-grade koa (which is the traditional uke wood) some manufacturers have been building ukes with alternative woods, with fabulous results. I have a Ko'olau tenor ukulele made of 'Ula wood, both body and soundboard, and it is profound. If I had unlimited resources I'd commission one of the luthiers on this forum to build me an oud with 'Ula as the soundboard, and one of the other alternative woods for the bowl. That will have to wait, but in case any of you are interested, here is a link to Ko'olau's wood selection, where some of the alternative woods are listed:
http://koolauukulele.com/woods/

I've attached a picture of my uke, although the image does not do the deep, rich red of the 'Ula wood justice. Unpolished, it is still truly a sight to behold. And sound wise, it is as buttery as they come.

Jack

Edward Powell - 8-24-2012 at 09:50 AM

well as u can see, I am an "environmentalist", but "abusive enforcement activity" is something that I find pathetic. For example just yesterday I bought a heat gun to fix my laptop and was forced to pay a 9% ENVIRONMENTAL FEE which is now in-force in Canada. I was shocked! I agree with setting up a program to "safely" dispose of these units in the future... but 9% of the purchase price!? This is a disgusting money grab... same old story! They bombarded us for decades with "end of the world" warnings and blamed us for our materialistic lifestyles, thereby turning the environment into the unquestionable God of our times...... the result is that now they can tax and fine us to absurdly exaggerated proportions and nobody will bat an eye because it is for the Great Environment God...

They have abused the true and honourable concept of Honest Environmentalism.

Has anyone out there heard of Agenda 21 what they are planning to do (are doing already) in the name of "sustainable development"?

[ok, that's my rant for today :wavey:

]

fernandraynaud - 8-24-2012 at 10:29 AM

Of course all the fees they collect go nowhere near a real solution. My personal view is that manufacturers who package with more than a minimum of plastic should pay to have the packaging recovered and re-used. It's disgusting to fight opening a package only to throw it in the trash. The rigid stuff also takes up a huge volume of nothing, adding to the cost of disposal.

Edward Powell - 8-24-2012 at 10:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Of course all the fees they collect go nowhere near a real solution. My personal view is that manufacturers who package with more than a minimum of plastic should pay to have the packaging recovered and re-used. It's disgusting to fight opening a package only to throw it in the trash. The rigid stuff also takes up a huge volume of nothing, adding to the cost of disposal.

well there is a really problem... Chinese powertools are insanely cheap, but only last 1 year. The ENVIRONMENTAL FEE in Canada is slapped on anything that you plug into the wall... So of course it makes sense to have disposal fee put on a cheap tool that will only last a year. But 9%? ...what about 1%?? It would not cost more than this... the other 8% goes into their pockets.

Furthermore, what about those noble people who still buy high quality western made powertools? Tools that will last 20 years or more? ...the people not only pay more for the tool but have to pay also 9% of that high price for the ENVIRONMENTAL FEE...... so the result will in fact be that this stupid fee will simply push even more people to buy the cheap chinese stuff because the fee assumes that that is what everybody is doing anyway!!!! How stupid can you get?!

Why not simply nip the problem in the bud and refuse to allow into the country products that employ slave-wage labour?! That way tools will remain high priced and high quality and there will not be this problem of what to do with all these broken cheap tools and electronics!?

ok, it is more complex than that - but the bottom line is that the environmental movement has been hi-jacked.

that's rant #2 for today :wavey:

Aymara - 8-24-2012 at 11:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

How stupid can you get?!

Incompetence rules the world

Regarding that Canadian environment fee ... that's nothing more than a renamed VAT.

jdowning - 8-24-2012 at 12:18 PM

"The Canadian environment fee ... that's nothing more than a renamed VAT". Well no it isn't Aymara - we also have an add on tax known as HST (Harmonised Sales Tax - as well as a General Sales Tax or GST and Provincial Sales Tax or PST).

In the Province of Ontario we are also governed by would be 'save the planet' politicians and self styled environmentalists living in their 'big city' ivory towers - all out of touch with reality. So we have 'environmental disposal fees' slapped on products like paint, car tires, electronics etc - yet the current government has yet to reveal how those collected taxes are to be spent on environmentally disposing of those products. In the meantime we rural dwellers have set up our own efficient local recycling programs (paid for by our additional municipal taxes, of course!) to deal with the 'problem'. Some of us have also invested in the environmental future converting our land to tree plantations - if they ever survive in the current rapidly changing environmental conditions (not that we will ever see any income from these ventures in our lifetime - trees grow slowly - but we do enjoy the trees and wildlife they attract and the dead trees provide us with heat in the frigid Canadian winters).

So back to the topic!

Exotic woods have always been relatively costly throughout the centuries. One efficient way to utilise these woods is to convert them into thin veneer. Veneer wood in the 19th C and earlier was sawn (often by hand) with special thin kerf saws. Today veneer wood is a lot thinner and is produced by machine which slices the log with a knife (knife cut veneer) that might be as thin as 1/100 inch.
Veneer is usually glued to a lower cost (stable) wood to give the impression that a piece of furniture is made from solid rosewood or mahogany or whatever, at a fraction of the cost.

Does this technique have an application for musical instruments. Historically - yes it does - not only for the casework of keyboard instruments like organs and pianos but also for guitars. For example high quality mid 19th French guitars by Grobert of Mirecourt, near Paris - the backs were made from softwood veneered with Brazilian Rosewood. I recently made a copy of one of these guitars using some old warehouse stock of knife cut Brazilian rosewood veneer purchased from Lee Valley, Ottawa many years ago. Not having any 'solid' rosewood, the sides of the guitar (matching the back) were made by laminating three layers of the veneer (i.e. a Brazilian rosewood plywood) that were then hot bent to the required profile.

So, veneer plywood may have a useful application for quality instruments (not just in cheap factory made instruments).

I am currently thinking about using laminated veneer for making fluted ribs. More on that later - perhaps.

Edward Powell - 8-24-2012 at 12:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

I am currently thinking about using laminated veneer for making fluted ribs. More on that later - perhaps.

I would be interested to hear your experience with laminating veneer into guitar sides.

Recently someone gave me a ton of nice mahogany 0.6mm veneer and I tried to make oud ribs from this. I made a solid mould from MDF and then glued 3 layers of veneer to eachother on this mould - so the result was a perfectly shaped rib without any bending. The middle layer was 1mm pine, so the total thickness was 2.2mm. My only doubt was that the resultiing rib seemed to lack rigidity... I am sure I would need another layer of veneer bringing the total to 2.8mm which I guess is not too heavy. This would actually work I am guessiing... and I think would actually be easier in the long run because bending would not be necessary.

John, in your opinion would this 'plywood' bowel cause inferior tone?

Aymara - 8-24-2012 at 01:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

yet the current government has yet to reveal how those collected taxes are to be spent on environmentally disposing of those products.

Will they ever do that? I doubt that. That's why I call it a hidden VAT, because you'll never know, how the state uses this income.

But back to topic:

Quote:

Does this technique have an application for musical instruments.

It's nowaydays often used for electric guitars and basses.

Quote:

I am currently thinking about using laminated veneer for making fluted ribs.

Interesting, but wouldn't it be more useful on neck and pegbox? As Edward already said ... isn't an influence on sound to be expected, when building veneered rips ... and how about the stability?

Interesting topic, worth a new thread!

jdowning - 8-24-2012 at 03:30 PM

We are talking here about acoustic not electrical instruments. Veneered necks and pegboxes are, of course, traditional practice.

Plywood is a very stable material. The geometry of an oud bowl - is like an egg shell - very rigid and strong once assembled from individual ribs so I very much doubt if there would be any significant acoustic difference between one made from, say, ribs of thin Birch aircraft grade plywood and one made of ribs from rosewood or any other materials all else - like the volume of the bowl - being equal (apart from the cost!). It is the sound board and bracing that are of primary importance acoustically.

It would not, of course, be possible to round off a bowl exterior profile built from veneered ribs - the finished bowl would be lute like with faceted ribs accurately fitted.

I have heard of pine being used historically for lute bowls but have never found an extant example - probably because softwoods are more difficult to hot bend than most hardwoods.

For stability, 3 piece (3ply) plywood is usually constructed with the grain of the centre core at right angles to that of the outer laminations. Also when veneering a piece of core wood both front and back faces must be veneered to counterbalance shrinkage forces and prevent 'cupping' of the work - at least if a traditional hot hide glue 'iron on' procedure is used.
Plywood can be hot bent - I have made fitted lute cases from the material.

Food for another topic, however, that I might initiate with my experience in building the 'Grobert' guitar - before memory completely fades.

Aymara - 8-24-2012 at 10:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

We are talking here about acoustic not electrical instruments.

I just wanted to give a further example of veneer usage in instrument building.

Quote:

... I very much doubt if there would be any significant acoustic difference between one made from, say, ribs of thin Beechwood aircraft plywood and one made of ribs from rosewood or any other materials all else ...

When I bought my oud I had the choice between two ouds. Both had the exactly same bowl design, but one was made of rosewood, the other walnut. Both soundboards were of the same spruce and had the same bracing, as far as I know. And both were strung with the same strings and had standard tuning CFAdgc. Also important is that both ouds were built in parallel at the same time. The only difference besides the mentioned wood choice was the sound hole design ... the rosewood oud had oval sound holes and the walnut oud had the typical round holes, both had no rosettes.

I think nobody will be astonished, when I tell that both ouds sounded totally different, but very nice. The most important difference was, that the rosewood oud had a much deeper warm bass, which the walnut oud was totally missing.

I doubt, that the bowl wood choice didn't play a major role here, because the sound difference was huge and the only other design difference was the sound hole shape.

PS: The bridges were also identical in design, but I don't remember, if they were of the same wood.

fernandraynaud - 8-25-2012 at 12:18 AM

Well, we have similar experiences. I suppose the "no effect from the bowl material" makes sense if you consider it mainly a reflector, but the whole oud vibrates together, it does not have to be played with chords, because it makes its own harmony. And clearly some part of that comes from the bowl itself.

jdowning - 8-25-2012 at 04:16 AM

Well sound hole size shape and placement - together with bowl volume - can have an effect on bass response (Helmholtz Resonator effect) when comparing two otherwise 'identical' instruments. No two sound boards are identical either - wood being such a variable material where there can be significant differences in physical properties even when cut from the same tree.

Getting back to the environmental theme. Not to be forgotten as a potential bowl material is that perfectly engineered wood product - paper. Combined with glue, paper can be hand moulded into practically any complex shape. Not new technology, as it was a very popular method used commercially for creating household objects in the pre-plastic days of the 19th C (known as Papier Maché).

It is said that the great Spanish guitar maker Torres made a guitar body from this material in order to demonstrate that the material used to construct the body made no difference to the sound produced and that it was the sound board material and bracing that was all important (not to mention the skill of the luthier in being able to produce the optimum acoustic performance from a given set of sound board components).

A benefit of a moulded paper bowl is that there are no glued joints so the bowl might be made stronger and thinner with this seamless construction. The method is to use a female master mold - similar to the procedure used today for moulding fibreglass by hand lay-up - the difference being that fibreglass and its resins are costly, toxic irritants.

Brian Prunka - 8-25-2012 at 05:53 AM

Plywood is often used in hollowbody archtop jazz guitars. An interesting specimen because they are both acoustic and electric.

A guitar is acoustically different from an oud because the top and back are both vibrating plates that work together. Of course the bowl of an oud vibrates as well, but not to the same degree.

Very thin plywood (most often birch, sometimes a birch/maple combo) seems to resonate quite well, while thicker plywood exhibits noticeable damping properties. As the plywood for a bowl would be expected to be quite thin (in order to facilitate bending), I would think it would work pretty well.

Aymara - 8-25-2012 at 07:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Of course the bowl of an oud vibrates as well, but not to the same degree.

That's interesting. Then it would be an interesting project to build an oud with a guitar like body, but still drop-shaped. A bit like the Godin Multioud, but with a deeper body.

Did any luthier try that so far?

Brian Prunka - 8-25-2012 at 07:35 AM

I've seen a couple by Turkish luthiers, but haven't seen one in person and don't know what the sound is like.

Didn't Mav have one built?

Edward Powell - 8-25-2012 at 08:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

Well sound hole size shape and placement - together with bowl volume - can have an effect on bass response (Helmholtz Resonator effect) when comparing two otherwise 'identical' instruments. No two sound boards are identical either - wood being such a variable material where there can be significant differences in physical properties even when cut from the same tree.

Getting back to the environmental theme. Not to be forgotten as a potential bowl material is that perfectly engineered wood product - paper. Combined with glue, paper can be hand moulded into practically any complex shape. Not new technology, as it was a very popular method used commercially for creating household objects in the pre-plastic days of the 19th C (known as Papier Maché).

It is said that the great Spanish guitar maker Torres made a guitar body from this material in order to demonstrate that the material used to construct the body made no difference to the sound produced and that it was the sound board material and bracing that was all important (not to mention the skill of the luthier in being able to produce the optimum acoustic performance from a given set of sound board components).

A benefit of a moulded paper bowl is that there are no glued joints so the bowl might be made stronger and thinner with this seamless construction. The method is to use a female master mold - similar to the procedure used today for moulding fibreglass by hand lay-up - the difference being that fibreglass and its resins are costly, toxic irritants.

To your first point, absolutely yes,- soundhole differences alter bass majorly, and it is a great mistake to assume that 2 soundboards are equal, unless they are made by Turunz who has tuned them equally - because slight difference will result in different area frequencies - you can not consider them equal unless you can prove that each resonant area is tuned exactly the same - otherwise each soundboard will produce a completely different set of overtones.

Second point... regarding the papier mache and the Torres experiment --- I went down this famous road of reasoning for a long time and even built a couple of paper backed ragmakamtars http://www.edwardpowell.com/rm6photos.html however, after some experimentation, I have to conclude that, on intuition only, I reject this theory. I do in fact think that the material of the back makes a difference. As Fernie mentioned, when I play an oud or a guitar I can feel the back vibrating strongly therefore this is obviously creating and filtering sounds... wood is special in that it has grain which makes it strong than it's weight alone. Paper has no grain and is a really 'dead' material - it needs to be really thick and heavy to have any strength. . . . having said that, i did not take the experiments too far, and it easily could have been due to other factors that those paper instruments left something to be desired. . . the only way to find out would be to build an otherwise perfect oud, but with a paper back - - - it would be a good way to finally know the answer to this question of how important to the sound the bowl material is.

Edward Powell - 8-25-2012 at 08:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

http://www.edwardpowell.com/rm7photos.html

on my previous post i gave a link to ragmakamtar #6 which has a paper back... so then being a bit fed up with that sound after playing that instrument for 18 months and many concerts and recordings http://www.edwardpowell.com/pg.html ....I decided to go completely the other direction and design a ragmakamtar which actually has two resonating plates - top and back - and the sides very very thick and stiff.

The back resonating plate is of spruce also and lightly braced - and there are two large soundports on the side... it is an amazing sensation to play this instrument because the sound comes right out of the side into your ear, and you can hear both plates resonating like crazy. Actually both of these instruments #6 and #7 are now for sale if anyone is interested.

jdowning - 8-25-2012 at 11:49 AM

Paper does not have a grain in the sense of wood but - dependent upon the type of paper and manufacturing process - can have a fibrous structure with 'grain' direction.

The 19th C commercial development of papier maché included a process where panels were made up from layers of paper saturated in hide glue and hand pressed into a uniform thickness. These panels were often used in the manufacture of the then popular 'japan ware' by being saturated in a bitumen/linseed oil based varnish and then dried in a furnace to produce a hard black smooth and durable product. Decorated trays, boxes and other trinkets were popular but furniture was also made from this material.
So, it should be possible using this method, to make consistent thin, hard, light, durable and strong oud bowls from paper - with fluted 'ribs' if required - using pre-plastic era materials. Choice of colour, however, would be limited to shiny black - like the model T Ford car (or french polished ebony)!

Of course, if 'modern' phenolic resins and the like are used as binders then the possibilities are further increased. In this way even light weight disposable fuel tanks on aircraft (drop tanks) used during WW2 were made from paper maché.

I have in the past made a few experimental 'fluted rib' lute bowls (with foam filled integral necks) from carbon fibre reinforced fibreglass - but that is another story.

Edward Powell - 8-25-2012 at 12:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

The 19th C commercial development of papier maché included a process where panels were made up from layers of paper saturated in hide glue and hand pressed into a uniform thickness. These panels were often used in the manufacture of the then popular 'japan ware' by being saturated in a bitumen/linseed oil based varnish and then dried in a furnace to produce a hard black smooth and durable product. Decorated trays, boxes and other trinkets were popular but furniture was also made from this material.
So, it should be possible using this method, to make consistent thin, hard, light, durable and strong oud bowls from paper - with fluted 'ribs' if required - using pre-plastic era materials. Choice of colour, however, would be limited to shiny black - like the model T Ford car (or french polished ebony)!

That would be great if you would give it a try. My paper mache was just packing paper and watered down white glue, and then (shame on me) a thin layer of bondo on the outside for extra strength and smoothness.

the process you describe of layers of paper saturated with hide glue and pressed into uniform thickness sounds exactly like how them make trespa except they saturate with poly-resin instead of hide glue....

jdowning - 8-25-2012 at 03:20 PM

I am not familiar with Trespa or its manufacturing process.

I have no interest at present in making an oud bowl from paper (or fibreglass for that matter) as it would require all of the time consuming effort and cost in mold making etc. but I might experiment at a later date with some small test strips of hide glue paper laminates 'japanned' and oven baked in the old way - just out of curiosity.

Unfortunately I gave away my master mold for making fibreglass lute bowls some years ago before relocating to another country. This mold would have been useful for paper bowl trials.

Aymara - 8-25-2012 at 11:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

Unfortunately I gave away my master mold for making fibreglass lute bowls some years ago ...

Does that mean, you have once built a lute with a fiberglass bowl? If yes, please tell us more about it.

fernandraynaud - 8-26-2012 at 06:39 AM

The writing's on the wall. Wooden instruments will soon be a rarity, like animals in Philip K. Dick's prophetic "Blade Runner". I got an inexpensive Chinese Spanish Guitar recently that actually plays and sounds passable, though it's a bit heavy, and I'm currently hunting for an infuriating buzzing loose brace. The sides and back are in a beautifully figured hardwood, heavily varnished. But it needed a better pickup and preamp. So, after removing the tiny old preamp, I cut into the side with a Dremel. That was a hard hard wood, it took a while to cut through. Imagine my surprise when I looked at the cut. Not hardwood. A laminate with a hard yellowish plastic inside. The wood grain is a photograph. After that, I started looking more carefully at the instruments in the stores. Most of the acoustic guitars are made this way, including some very respected names that have garnered rave reviews about their beautiful "mahogany". I haven't cut a soundboard yet, but I bet that spruce top isn't spruce. Though Faruk has shown it's actually better than spruce, when I cut through that guitar I felt like I'd just discovered that my mother was a robot, and all the plants in the park artificial.

jdowning - 8-26-2012 at 06:42 AM

I built and sold half a dozen of these experimental lutes during the 1970's before discontinuing because of the toxicity and irritant problems associated with handling fibreglass and its resins. The objective was to built low cost lutes.

These instruments had a foam filled neck molded integral with the bowl (complete with decorative inlays cast in) and were fitted with cedar sound boards, and wooden pegboxes with Brazilian Rosewood pegs (those were the days!). Two were fitted with extended wooden necks (small archlutes) - one of these is currently being offered for sale on the Internet by the owner. The bowls have heavily fluted 'ribs'.

I may still have some images laying around somewhere so if I can find them I will post them for information just to show what can be achieved - but as a separate topic - not on this thread!

Aymara - 8-26-2012 at 06:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

... but as a separate topic ...

That would be great ... here we are too far off-topic right now.