Mike's Oud Forums - Powered by XMB

It sounds like a very nice Turkish oud to me. Hijaz on D ... I wonder in what sense it's Arabic, beside the tuning.

Doesn't sound very Turkish to my ears.

Edward Powell - 9-4-2012 at 08:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

the "scooped" mids of a Turkish oud, which emphasize the bass and treble, versus the pronounced mids and tight bass of an Arabic oud. ....the preference for more "nasal" sounds often prominent in Arabic music.

I would say it is the exact opposite. What give a Turkish oud its sound is the nasal quality - very very strong mids.

As far as Arabic ouds go, you can not generalize because there are too many types... but to my ears none of them have such strong mids as Turkish ouds.

There is a reason for this... the main difference between Turkish and Arabic bracing is that that Arabs make all the braces tall. Turkish make all braces tall except for the 3rd brace which is trimmed down to about 4 or 5mm... it is this 3rd brace which coresponses to the mids, therefore they are more "alive" on a Turkish oud because the 3rd brace is so small.

But maybe I missed something along the way, Brian, please enlighten me, can you post some clips to support your view?

Thanks

ameer - 9-4-2012 at 08:26 AM

Raising the action is an easy way to boost the mids and bring out that more Arabic flavor. I do it a lot on smaller ouds as they tend to be brighter to begin with. The thing to be aware of is that with certain ouds and with certain strings it can disproportionately boost a very narrow frequency band which brings out an unpleasant metallic ping when you play certain open strings. Also PVF strings are typically less sensitive to height changes than nylgut which, depending on whether or not you want a little honk in your sound, can be desirable. If you bring it high enough a nylgut string will sound a lot like a car horn.
I'm curious to know if it makes a difference whether you raise the action through changing the neck angle or raise it through raising the string loops which increases the neck angle but also brings the strings further from the face.

Brian Prunka - 9-4-2012 at 11:02 AM

Perhaps we need to distinguish between low mids and high mids, I suppose one might say that the high mids are emphasized in Turkish ouds, along with the highs in general, while the low mids are emphasized in Arabic ouds.
It would be interesting to do a spectral analysis of various ouds, subjective perceptions are not going to get us anywhere, and I don't think that sound clips are particularly useful for comparison.

By the way, note that I was saying that Turunz ouds have a more "pure" sound conception, not Turkish ouds in general. The way you quoted me makes it seems like I was referring to Turkish ouds, when the sentence clearly says "Turunz ouds don't exactly sound "Turkish" either".

I agree that raising the action slightly does give a bit more Arabic flavor, but I don't think it is a substitute for a real Arabic-sounding oud.

farukturunz - 9-4-2012 at 01:05 PM

Dear all, (who have contributed to this thread which is directly relevant to my name and a special production line and the respected members of these forums who have been following the contributions and additionally who have ever read these exchange of ideas).

I am well aware that I've extended the addressing sentence too much but that's my basic aim to ınterfere to this thread where my name and my "REDUCED PRICE POINT OUD LINE" flitting over the lines:

Let me enunciate proudly and arrogantly that:

I AM THE ONLY MAN WHO HAVE EXPLORED ALL THE "SECRETS" OF THE OUD IN THE HISTORY !!!!

I am also the creator of the original "BRACE TUNING METHOD" which enables one to make his or her oud sound in a typical manner: Turkish, Arabian and Iraqi or Armenian, as well...

The only reason that some officious gentlemen classify my ouds as "non Arabic" is the consequence that I desire it to be in that way: I don't want to construct any ouds sounding "ARABIC" or "ARABIAN"

HERE GOES!!!!

Which smart Alec has constructed 1500-1600 ouds in his life and which naive READER is incapable to understand what's going on here. Those gentlemen have never contacted me personally through my e-mail address and they just abuse these forums' pages for priggery.

If they had contacted me via my e-mail to order an "ARABIC OUD" which will fit to their rudimentary delight, I WOULD MAKE THAT OUD FOR THEM WITHOUT CHARGING A PENNY .

But they don't have this sort of self confidence to do this.

Edward Powell - 9-4-2012 at 02:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Perhaps we need to distinguish between low mids and high mids, I suppose one might say that the high mids are emphasized in Turkish ouds, along with the highs in general, while the low mids are emphasized in Arabic ouds.
It would be interesting to do a spectral analysis of various ouds, subjective perceptions are not going to get us anywhere, and I don't think that sound clips are particularly useful for comparison.

By the way, note that I was saying that Turunz ouds have a more "pure" sound conception, not Turkish ouds in general. The way you quoted me makes it seems like I was referring to Turkish ouds, when the sentence clearly says "Turunz ouds don't exactly sound "Turkish" either".

I agree that raising the action slightly does give a bit more Arabic flavor, but I don't think it is a substitute for a real Arabic-sounding oud.

Well perhaps we can say that ouds don't have 'real' bass - and in fact their 'bass' is actually very low mids. . . .but in my opinion, whatever you want to call it, to my ears the one blatantly obvious characterizing feature of Turkish ouds is that the nasal mids come out so strongly and beautifully - this is why I love Turkish ouds so much.

In my opinion Turkish ouds are not very strong on highs... at least the old school Turkish sound seems mostly mids, and some bass, and few highs. . . . . the modern Turkish sound is much more bright it seems to me.

It seems to me that a typical "Arabic" sounding oud is very rich in bass (or low mids if u prefer that term)... and very rich in highs... often lots of squeaky nylon shredding (which I like very much!).

I just don't get why people keep saying that Arabic ouds have more mids? That's one myth that needs shooting down in my opinion :wavey:

- - -

Hi Faruk Usta!
Hey, I have a question. . . just for a laugh have you ever used your brace tuning method to try to create the worst possible sounding oud while still staying within the acceptable range of brace hights, positions, and soundboard thicknesses??? Actually this is a serious question --- and it might be an interesting way to show people that it is not enough just to randomly build soundboards according to rough approximations. It would be interesting to hear 2 of your ouds side by side: one properly brace tunes, and a second with the braces out of tune.

farukturunz - 9-4-2012 at 02:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

Hi Faruk Usta!
Hey, I have a question. . . just for a laugh have you ever used your brace tuning method to try to create the worst possible sounding oud while still staying within the acceptable range of brace hights, positions, and soundboard thicknesses??? Actually this is a serious question --- and it might be an interesting way to show people that it is not enough just to randomly build soundboards according to rough approximations. It would be interesting to hear 2 of your ouds side by side: one properly brace tunes, and a second with the braces out of tune.

Hi Eddi!

Thanks for your illuminating questions.
First of all, "tuning" of the braces is not sentient necessarily and not peculiarly bound to ones design. They (the specific frequencies of the braces) stay there, whether correspond with a parallel order with the strings' frequencies or haphazard. There are resonant areas on the S.B. which correspond with the frequencies produced by the strings. If one makes the bracing without respecting to a principle and decide for the average thickness of the S.B. by only copying the good masters' ouds the result no doubt will be haphazard. May God give a good chance

Of course throughout hundreds of years hundreds and thousands of experiments have been done by the luthiers to find out the most appropriate patterns for bracing which comprise the intersection and the profile of the braces, placing them on the S.B. and the thickness of it. Many of us have been trying to copy those patterns with success and failure and have attributed the result to some unknown and somehow "mystical" properties of the wood used.

No! No! I will make an "ARABIAN" sounding oud of which the counterparts' sound can be heard all around the Arabic countries. The interesting question is this: Why the % 95 of my customers are from Arabic countries?
Most probably they prefer those of my ouds which have been designed especially for "ARABIAN TUNING"
Or can you attribute this to their unawareness of these gentlemen's "enlightening(!)" comments!!!

Of course I will make one sample "ARABIC OUD" to show to the world how my BRACE TUNING METHOD is versatile

)

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2012 at 03:45 PM

Now, Mr Turunz, as you can see, there is wide disagreement over what constitutes "Turkish" vs. "Arabic" timbre in an oud.

But, truly, as rudimentary prigs, it makes perfect sense that we should be so ignorant. We have not built 1600 ouds. Each of us has had access to maybe a handful of instruments, and listened to many poor recordings. Moreover, recordings can completely alter/mask/conceal the sound of an instrument. As THE ONLY man who has elucidated all the secrets of the oud in history, why don't you make some wider use of your knowledge and actually explain it to us in terms of the resonant nodes, the emphasized frequencies, the various sonic artifacts, that add up to what many people would accept as sounding "Turkish" vs. "Arabic"?

From your post it seems you are a bit angry. I wonder how you would benefit if we didn't take interest in the issues and argue, if we shut up and just let this, and other threads, fade into the archives.

Personally, what I hear in that youtube clip is not exactly Turkish, but along the continuum from the most plunky gut-buckets of North Africa to the most Sazzy shoe-boxes of the Bosphorus, it seems closer to Northern tone than old-fashioned Arabic.

And, Brian, I humbly apologize for saying things more than once, though it could be viewed as sharing with new members on our forum ;-)

Brian Prunka - 9-4-2012 at 04:19 PM

Hey Fernand, no need to apologize, I just feel that it is a misleading suggestion to tell someone that the difference in sound is just a matter of raising the action. I think you should maybe make it clearer that it is just a nudge and not the primary difference.

Edward, I don't see any point in arguing about this, the only way to settle it is to do an in-person spectral analysis of a number of ouds both Turkish and Arabic and study the data. Obviously our subjective perceptions are different, and it would be illuminating to review hard data. However, I do not have time to do this and don't really see any point in doing so merely to satisfy curiosity.

Dear Mr. Turunz,

I am perplexed by your indignant tone. I have repeatedly praised your ouds in the highest terms, and I haven't suggested that you couldn't make a traditional Arabic-sounding oud if you wanted to.
In fact, quite to the contrary, I believe you certainly could if that was what you wanted.

I find it impressive that you have explored the oud so thoroughly and I consider it a tremendous accomplishment that you have created an oud which transcends the distinctions between Turkish and Arabic--it is a remarkably pure and balanced sound, probably as close to an acoustically perfect oud as can be acheived. It is perfectly understandable that, since a "traditional" Arabic sound is acoustically imperfect in many ways, that you prefer to use your more advanced techniques.

I do not discourage anyone from purchasing your ouds, but I do think that people should understand what they are getting.
I personally think your ouds are amazing and would love to own one someday.

farukturunz - 9-4-2012 at 04:23 PM

Now, Mr Turunz, as you can see, there is wide disagreement over what constitutes "Turkish" vs. "Arabic" timbre in an oud.

But, truly, as rudimentary prigs, it makes perfect sense that we should be so ignorant. We have not built 1600 ouds. Each of us has had access to maybe a handful of instruments, and listened to many poor recordings. Moreover, recordings can completely alter/mask/conceal the sound of an instrument. As THE ONLY man who has elucidated all the secrets of the oud in history, why don't you make some wider use of your knowledge and actually explain it to us in terms of the resonant nodes, the emphasized frequencies, the various sonic artifacts, that add up to what many people would accept as sounding "Turkish" vs. "Arabic"?

From your post it seems you are a bit angry. I wonder how you would benefit if we didn't take interest in the issues and argue, if we shut up and just let this, and other threads, fade into the archives.

Personally, what I hear in that youtube clip is not exactly Turkish, but along the continuum from the most plunky gut-buckets of North Africa to the most Sazzy shoe-boxes of the Bosphorus, it seems closer to Northern tone than old-fashioned Arabic.

And, Brian, I humbly apologize for saying things more than once, though it could be viewed as sharing with new members on our forum ;-)

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13132#pid89...

and

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13253#pid90...

Not angry but I'm frustrated.

Please show and let us listen to a sample sound of a sample "old-fashioned Arabic oud"

Regards

farukturunz - 9-4-2012 at 04:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Dear Mr. Turunz,

I am perplexed by your indignant tone.

So am I... (perplexed by some people's "moderate" tone).

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2012 at 05:28 PM

You are treated here with the utmost respect, even obsequiousness. I can understand your pride in your work. But all the narration of your advanced brace tuning lacks what I'm asking about : a clear summary of what constitutes the characteristic sonic differences between Turkish and Arabic ouds.

I have one oud that to my ears is rather "old fashioned Arabic" and I'll endeavor to make a transparent recording. What struck me in looking at captured spectra, was that the "ker-plunk" mini-echo that I notice in the Arabic sound was indeed visible as a sharply stepped development of the harmonics. Surely, if such rudimentary examination can yield delights, you have done much more, examined countless spectra and instruments, and have the skill to communicate in a paragraph what makes an oud sound Turkish vs. Arabic, even if this is a moving target as tastes change.

This oud sounds pretty Arabic to my ears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmlzEEKbfXU&feature=related

Edward Powell - 9-4-2012 at 05:51 PM

This oud sounds pretty Arabic to my ears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmlzEEKbfXU&feature=related

yes! This is typical Arabic tone! :xtreme:

...except at 0.28 - 0.30 seconds.... here it sounds more like John Lee Hooker!

PS... also, listen to how buzzy the action is on the low strings! Maybe that myth that only Turkish ouds use buzzy low action should be shot down also? [Ever heard Hazem Shaheen?]

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2012 at 06:24 PM

And maybe on any oud, actual buzzing is just a nuisance ;-)? I dunno, it's not so much buzzing as a longer singing of notes, and as Ameer points out, it interacts with the string material, and it does sound altogether less Turkish as you raise the strings. There was a Fadi Matta clip demo of his neck adjustment that's no longer on YouTube, and it was very audible how the timbre seems to move North as you lower the strings, South as you raise them. Not the only factor of course, but not a myth either.

Edward Powell - 9-4-2012 at 07:26 PM

the timbre seems to move North as you lower the strings, South as you raise them. Not the only factor of course, but not a myth either.

I hate to be Mr. "Disagreeable" on this thread - and perhaps it is a part of me that feels uncomfortable with any type of "stereotyping"...
...but I also tend to disagree that Turkish sound is characterized by low action buzzing. In my opinion some of the most Turkish sounding Turkish players seem to have quite high action. For example the first Turkish oud playing I ever heard (back in the very early 90's) was Elgin Kizilay, and I had a cassette of his taksims which I absolutely fell in love with, and this has been imbedded in my brain as "old school Turkish sound" and in my opinion the "really Turkish" Turkish sound. . . and this sound did not include low action buzzing.

Unless I'm mistaken, this low action thing is rather a recent modern thing.

I guess generally speaking lower action takes a more technically minded luthier to achieve - and generally, the further north you go the technical people get. . . . so there can be some co-relation in this assumption.

Edward Powell - 9-4-2012 at 07:40 PM

...I also wanted to add then again I think most people are assessing the differences between Turkish and Arabic tone quite opposite from what is really happening.

People generally try to say that Arabic ouds are much more bassy and deep/dark sounding than Turkish ouds.

Well, just listen to some players and what you notice is that Arabic player tend much more to be up on the nylons most of the time, and do not hang around much on the low strings.

On the other hand, the opposite is true for Turkish players who spend much more time on the wound strings and finally don't do all that much up high.

I think this myth built up perhaps because Arab ouds are bigger than Turkish so people began "hearing with their eyes" and assuming that Arab ouds are more bassy.

Again, there is a reason why Arab oud players tend to spend so much time heavy handedly shredding on the nylons whereas Turkish oud players tend more just to gently stroke the lower strings... one reason is that although Arab ouds are bigger, their soundboards are thicker than Turkish... and Arabic braces are skyscrapers compared to the very low Turkish bracing..... and the 3rd thing is that Turkish soundholes are much smaller than Arabic - this also deepens the Turkish tone ...the result is that although the Turkish oud has a smaller body, the small holes, very thin SB, and low-light bracing means that Turkish ouds really sing in the lows and mids...

Arab ouds with big body and heavy construction: The big body allows for a kind of punch very very low... but the heavy SB and bracing means that the highs are going to be the sweetest area to play in, and the strings will need a stronger attack - - - whereas a Turkish oud is so light and fragile that an Arab Attack on one sounds horrible.

PS - Brian, my comments are in no way argumentative towards you specifically. I think that you know what I'm talking about and we are confusing terms (mids - low mids - bass), which can confuse everyone in fact.

jack - 9-4-2012 at 09:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

...I also wanted to add then again I think most people are assessing the differences between Turkish and Arabic tone quite opposite from what is really happening.

People generally try to say that Arabic ouds are much more bassy and deep/dark sounding than Turkish ouds.

Well, just listen to some players and what you notice is that Arabic player tend much more to be up on the nylons most of the time, and do not hang around much on the low strings.

On the other hand, the opposite is true for Turkish players who spend much more time on the wound strings and finally don't do all that much up high.

I think this myth built up perhaps because Arab ouds are bigger than Turkish so people began "hearing with their eyes" and assuming that Arab ouds are more bassy.

Again, there is a reason why Arab oud players tend to spend so much time heavy handedly shredding on the nylons whereas Turkish oud players tend more just to gently stroke the lower strings... one reason is that although Arab ouds are bigger, their soundboards are thicker than Turkish... and Arabic braces are skyscrapers compared to the very low Turkish bracing..... and the 3rd thing is that Turkish soundholes are much smaller than Arabic - this also deepens the Turkish tone ...the result is that although the Turkish oud has a smaller body, the small holes, very thin SB, and low-light bracing means that Turkish ouds really sing in the lows and mids...

Arab ouds with big body and heavy construction: The big body allows for a kind of punch very very low... but the heavy SB and bracing means that the highs are going to be the sweetest area to play in, and the strings will need a stronger attack - - - whereas a Turkish oud is so light and fragile that an Arab Attack on one sounds horrible.

Lovely analysis Edward.

I would add that much of the difference between Turkish and Arabic ouds is 'proportion'. I can compare their relationship to the more extreme relationship of tenor ukulele, and guitar. If you capo a guitar at the 5th fret, you get the ukulele tuning on the 4 highest strings, but you never get the ukulele sound from those same four strings. The notes do not sing the same song, nor do the chords come together the same way. The proportions are different. Similarly, to me the Turkish oud will never match the Arabic oud for warmth, depth, and fullness, but the notes on a Turkish oud are so well defined, and they blend together in a completely different way than Arabic ouds, even up to the bass string (as Edward pointed out). You can play all six strings as a collective on a Turkish oud in a more 'together' sense than on an Arabic oud, where some strings are more melody, some more rhythm, some more drone.

fernandraynaud - 9-5-2012 at 12:22 AM

Yes, things are in flux, that's what I meant about "a moving target". Probably the best ouds increasingly take freely from both traditions. And the way players work, both right and left hand, contributes a lot to the way ouds sound. For every generalization we make, like about playing mostly high or low, we can find opposites cases.

But let's start with where we DO agree, so we can try to broadly define what we mean by "Turkish" vs "Arabic" oud sound. We agree that Nasser Houari plays an Arabic oud. What tells us it's Arabic? Can we agree on these:

1) Arabic: plunky. Fast percussive attack and shorter decay of notes. Turkish has longer sustain.

2) Arabic: Fundamental frequency dominates after an initial "pop". Fewer upper harmonics, a more "nylon" sound. Turkish: less initial pop, more upper harmonics from the outset, a more "metal-wound string" sound.

If we can agree on these simple beginnings, what else? Can you point to what you'd consider a "purely Turkish" oud sound?

I do wish Mr Turunz would verbalize specifics, rather than just tell us he understands it all. Although more balanced than most ouds, to my ears this instrument has a very Turkish sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh0k03UL0BQ

Ararat66 - 9-5-2012 at 01:03 AM

Just a quick comment - I know my knowledge and experience is relatively little, but I don't recognise the general characteristic of Arabic ouds as (to paraphrase) 'heavy' and high action.

I had the good fortune of playing on dave Humphrey's Kamil Mowais in Oxford this year when Nizar Rohana came over. It was one of the most wonderful instruments I have played - really low action, no buzz and a very thin sound board. I think the body was quite large as I remember but it was very lightly built.

Nizar has also brought a number of Arabic ouds for some of us UK udis, often older models, and they tend to be characterised by a very light weight, low action, thin soundboards and very very easy playing ... the strings feel almost buttery to the risha.

Leon

Bodhi - 9-5-2012 at 04:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jack

I would add that much of the difference between Turkish and Arabic ouds is 'proportion'.

Just thought I would say that I don't believe that the size of the instrument really alters the sound in such dramatic way. I own a Mohammadi bros. Barbat and as many will know the dimensions are much smaller than even the Turkish ouds. The sound however resembles more the syrian ouds with a depth not found in Turkish ouds. Previously I owned a Turkish Oud by Saandi who we can probably agree have that Turkish sound down to a fine art) and so I know the difference by direct comparison.

Ustad Ghanbari the Master of Iranian instrument building taught the Mohammadi Bros. and his bracing pattern is the result of much research, to gain maximum volume with the smaller bowl. I would also say that in Iran the Oud is generally used as a bass instrument in ensemble playing which is probably the reason for them wanting that, lets say, syrian sound with deep bass and little high harmonics. (I hope I this is not a wrong interpretation of harmonics regarding the syrian oud sound)

I would like to say to Faruk Tarunz that I await his reply to my e-mail with anticipation, and that it would be really to the benefit of the board if he started a thread and dealt in depth with his 'Tuned Bracing System' and the difference between Turkish and Arabian Ouds in a scientific way. So, for us laymen there would be less guesswork and more understanding.

Regards
Bodhi

jdowning - 9-5-2012 at 05:00 AM

How thick is thin and how light is heavy?

If some 'Arabic' ouds made today are relatively heavily built with thick sound boards this would seem to be a modern trend - made possible by the relatively late invention of nylon trebles and metal wound basses allowing, in turn, low pitch tuning and greater volume of sound.
In the past 'thin' wood would seem to have been the order of the day for oud construction (as it was and still is for the lute). As 14th C Ibn al-Tahhan al- Musiqi has to say " Seasoned larch wood, without flaws, is cut very thin for the sound board. It should be of two or three pieces rather than one piece. The bowl should be of thinner wood ...".
No indication of thickness measurement of course but my old (early 20th C?) Egyptian oud has a pine sound board of measured thickness averaging about 1.8 mm - somewhat thicker in the central areas and somewhat thinner around the edges. Actual average thickness, however, is somewhat thinner than this as the whole underside of the sound board is scored with fine grooves made with a toothing plane. Total weight unstrung is 0.9 Kg (including the soundboard weight of 0.14 Kg)

By way of comparison, the somewhat smaller 7 course lute, 60 cm string length, that I regularly play weighs - fully strung - 0.56 Kg.

Do we have any similar measured data for Arabic and Turkish ouds?

suz_i_dil - 9-5-2012 at 06:58 AM

I don't think there is one type of "arabic" sounding oud.
That's a matter of taste. For exemple the one played by Nasser Houari, post by Fernand Raynaud, is absolutely not the kind of arabic, arabian, or whatever else I'm looking for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmlzEEKbfXU&feature=related

What about this one ?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z0kmrV7BEA&feature=relmfu
For me, very oriental and I love it.

And this one ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mNxwgAmTKM&feature=related

Both of 3 are rather different, but who can say one of the 3 is not arabic ?

For me, I own a Faruk previously name grand concert arabic oud, and I really enjoy it. For me it's perfectly what I was awaiting of an "arabic" oud. Moreover I feel it, believe me or not, more near of the sound of Shaheen's Nahat.

Jody Stecher - 9-5-2012 at 07:05 AM

A limited yet useful, helpful way to describe the tone of musical instruments, and therefore to discuss the difference between instruments is to compare their sound to the sound of vowels. Bearing in mind that there is variety of sound amongst both Turkish and Arabic ouds and also between wound and unwound strings on either type of oud, and that all samples will not conform to what I am about to suggest, would the contributors/participants of this forum agree that —in general — the sound of Arabic oud is in the area of "ah" and "aw", and that the sound of Turkish oud is in the area of "oh" and "ooh" Of course there is overlap but I do find this paradigm useful. Further, I submit that the sound of "eee" and "eeeww" are not typical oud sounds. Of course other vowel sounds can occur on most ouds, particular those of the language of the player.

Brian Prunka - 9-5-2012 at 07:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

A limited yet useful, helpful way to describe the tone of musical instruments, and therefore to discuss the difference between instruments is to compare their sound to the sound of vowels. Bearing in mind that there is variety of sound amongst both Turkish and Arabic ouds and also between wound and unwound strings on either type of oud, and that all samples will not conform to what I am about to suggest, would the contributors/participants of this forum agree that —in general — the sound of Arabic oud is in the area of "ah" and "aw", and that the sound of Turkish oud is in the area of "oh" and "ooh" Of course there is overlap but I do find this paradigm useful. Further, I submit that the sound of "eee" and "eeeww" are not typical oud sounds. Of course other vowel sounds can occur on most ouds, particular those of the language of the player.

I hear the Arabic sound as more of an "uh" or "eh". . .

Bodhi - 9-5-2012 at 08:03 AM

I would go with Jody on this one, and adding in the consonants at the beginning you really get the feel of the arabian oud for instance:

Tah Toh
Taw Tooh
Dah Doh
Daw Dooh

Ofcourse opinions may vary but the D or T could depend on nylon or steel wound or the position of risha and heavyness or sharpness of stroke.

the Turkish, I would say, prefering D to T.

Would we all also agree that probably Risha technique and string tension/material also play a larger role than has been noted in this topic?

P.s. where suz_i_dill says "arabic, arabian, or whatever else" Arabic is the language and Arabian is anything coming out of the Arab world, just a quick clarification.

Jody Stecher - 9-5-2012 at 08:34 AM

Brian and Bodhi are both correct. The sounds they describe occur in the context of playing music. The general sound categories I proposed are an attempt to describe the basic sound of ouds when artificially separated from the music they play. My idea was they sound this way when the string is gently plucked with the bare pad of a finger. That way the sound of various plectrum materials are not a factor, and neither are plectrum techniques.

In context I hear the vowel "uh" from Omar Naqshbandi and Sunbati along with other vowels. From George Michel I hear lots of "ah". I also hear lots of "aw" from Turkish instruments in the middle strings whereas the "aw" in Arabic instruments seems to be to be more on the lowest strings.

Obviously I would need to have tested hundreds or even thousand of samples of ouds to make any definitive statements about "oud vowels". I'm just looking for a way to talk about these differences in a productive way that might be more helpful than saying that Arabic ouds sound Arabic and Turkish ouds sound Turkish ( which, by the way, is not such a bad description, but maybe not the best one).

jack - 9-5-2012 at 08:53 AM

Just thought I would say that I don't believe that the size of the instrument really alters the sound in such dramatic way.

If this were the case, there would be no reason to build a contrabass, because a violin would be able to be built with such a type of bracing that it could be as 'bassy' as a contrabass, which is obviously impossible. Size does matter. It is not the one and only factor in 'bassyness', but it is one. But I wasn't quoted on size, but on 'proportion', which is a different ballgame altogether. Proportion is how the whole works together, and in the case of Turkish ouds, I believe the proportions work differently in many acoustic ways than with Arabic ouds. No matter which type of oud, the voice and sustain of each single note, and the way the notes intermingle are all related to 'proportion'.

Edward Powell - 9-5-2012 at 09:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66

Just a quick comment - I know my knowledge and experience is relatively little, but I don't recognise the general characteristic of Arabic ouds as (to paraphrase) 'heavy' and high action.

I had the good fortune of playing on dave Humphrey's Kamil Mowais in Oxford this year when Nizar Rohana came over. It was one of the most wonderful instruments I have played - really low action, no buzz and a very thin sound board. I think the body was quite large as I remember but it was very lightly built.

Nizar has also brought a number of Arabic ouds for some of us UK udis, often older models, and they tend to be characterised by a very light weight, low action, thin soundboards and very very easy playing ... the strings feel almost buttery to the risha.

Leon

Exactly! ...this is why 'stereotyping' never leads anywhere...

Edward Powell - 9-5-2012 at 09:41 AM

to my ears this instrument has a very Turkish sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh0k03UL0BQ

...these are only my "opinions" by the way - I don't claim any expertise.

This sample you have presented seems to me like the "modern" Turkish sound - which to me sounds like the old sound PLUS a lot of bright high sizzle. I think these added highs are a relatively new thing... My guess is the old school Turkish sound was much more round - perhaps like this sample.

http://youtu.be/JgobGjQaSqw

Bodhi - 9-5-2012 at 10:35 AM

yes Jack you are right
I wrongly confused size with proportions, and as you say their is a vast difference between a contra-bass and a violin, never mind that take a viola and the tone changes dramatically.

I would like to know when Jody was listening to George Michael making "aw" sounds. I hope it wasn't in that public toilet fiasco?
Firstly; I never heard that he had any interest in Arabian music or the oud.
Secondly; His vocals tend to lean towards "Oooohs" and "yeaaaaahs"
Please enlighten us Jody.

)

fernandraynaud - 9-5-2012 at 11:15 AM

Wonderful contributions, at least we rudimentary prigs are trying.

Eddie, Eddie. Without categorizing there's no science, no logic, no discourse! Good point about the prominence of higher harmonics being a recent development, but in my case for instance that's what I've always known as "Turkish", definitely brighter, but un-saz-like in that the brightness is just an attribute of a sustaining midrange vowel, what Jody calls the "o". Hmm, so to your ears Turkish is just that upper midrange roundness, that "o"? Notice that the short "ah" vowel starts with a glottal "plunk", so it does capture that Arabic thing. We need some spectra!

Edward Powell - 9-5-2012 at 11:21 AM

no science, no logic, no discourse!

Sometimes I wonder if we all woundn't be better off without these things...? :wavey:

so to your ears Turkish is just that upper midrange roundness

exactly...

fernandraynaud - 9-5-2012 at 11:42 AM

Bunny-hugger! Head-in-the-sand greenie commie bystander veggie! ;-)

But, seriously, we're actually making some progress. Maybe we can say that Arabic ouds have a shorter "ga" sound? And that contemporary Turkish ouds a longer "zoo" timbre?

Edward Powell - 9-5-2012 at 11:55 AM

Bunny-hugger! Head-in-the-sand greenie commie bystander veggie! ;-)

now there u go categorizing again!

)

Aymara - 9-5-2012 at 01:12 PM

Ah's and oh's, George Michael in the toilet and now the "zoo" timbre ... what a discussion

Jody Stecher - 9-5-2012 at 02:54 PM

I would like to know when Jody was listening to George Michael making "aw" sounds. I hope it wasn't in that public toilet fiasco?
Firstly; I never heard that he had any interest in Arabian music or the oud.
Secondly; His vocals tend to lean towards "Oooohs" and "yeaaaaahs"
Please enlighten us Jody.

)

I had to do a web search for George Michael to have an inkling of what you meant. He is not a household name in the USA, especially to my (older) generation. But in *my* household the Egyptian oud player George Michel is highly respected and his music much enjoyed.

Edward Powell - 9-5-2012 at 09:12 PM

I would like to say to Faruk Tarunz that I await his reply to my e-mail with anticipation, and that it would be really to the benefit of the board if he started a thread and dealt in depth with his 'Tuned Bracing System' and the difference between Turkish and Arabian Ouds in a scientific way. So, for us laymen there would be less guesswork and more understanding.

It is my understanding that sometime soon Faruk Usta may soon be publishing a book about his "Brace Tuning Method" - as well as holding public seminars/workshops for those wanting to learn how to apply this method.

oudistcamp - 9-5-2012 at 10:09 PM

Two weeks ago, Faruk and I spent a full day together calculating and analysing the Brace Tuning Method. It makes so much sense and sheds light as to why certain ouds sound the way they do.

The Brace Tuning Method is openly available to anyone who is interested with an open mind. After fully understanding it, you are free to accept it or not. Prior to that, any criticism of the Method is a display of ignorance tinted by prejudice.

Bodhi - 9-5-2012 at 11:37 PM

It was a joke Jody! I am fully aware you did not mean the pop singer. I thought that it was a good joke but obviously it has been lost on you.

jass - 9-6-2012 at 02:32 AM

Faruk says "Let me enunciate proudly and arrogantly that:
I AM THE ONLY MAN WHO HAVE EXPLORED ALL THE "SECRETS" OF THE OUD IN THE HISTORY !!!!"

They say that the spirit of the maker is in each instrument, if this is the spirit, I wont be jumping to buy one anytime soon. I dont care how good they sound, I think Turunz lack of modesty and attitude in the post shows his inability to accept criticism graciously. Customers have the right to criticise, question, scrutinize and share opinions on manufacture, sound etc especially when they have to hand over thousands of dollars.

I am offended by his statements, and shows a great disrespect to great oud makers of the past, forum members opinions. He's unlocked all the secrets has he? Unbelieveable!
It is a shame, that Turunz, a person with great respect on these forums should come on and act in this manner, calling people prigs, whatever that is, as a professional luthier unacceptable. Especially taking offense to forum members that have sung his praises, its not a dictatorship, this is a forum and people can speak, or can we only say good things about Turunz ouds?

Good luck to you Mr Turunz, but after this forum post, it really brought many things to light, your aggressive attitude, and tone wasnt really warranted considering what was said before your post. Needless to say, you have lost as a future customer, and I will not interested in any in any developments with your instruments.

In general when choosing an oud, go with a maker your comfortable with and friendly to deal with, that meets your needs as a player...expensive doesnt automatically mean great...Good luck to everyone!

Humbly,

Jass.

Bodhi - 9-6-2012 at 03:23 AM

I agree with you Jass. i was thinking to write a post in a similar vein. I was also very interested in Faruk's offer;

"Which smart Alec has constructed 1500-1600 ouds in his life and which naive READER is incapable to understand what's going on here. Those gentlemen have never contacted me personally through my e-mail address and they just abuse these forums' pages for priggery.

If they contact me via my e-mail to order an "ARABIC OUD" which will fit to their rudimentary delight, I MAKE THAT OUD FOR THEM WITHOUT CHARGING A PENNY .

But they don't have this sort of self confidence to do this."

So i sent an e-mail asking for my deserved, free "Arabic Oud". needless to say I have had no reply. Perhaps it is my mistake, I didnt write my specifications. So here we go;
I won't ask for something fancy just basic
A double top
Bowl
Burma Teak +300 USD
Purple Heart (Amaranth) +500 USD

Rosette:
Rosewood +100USD

Pickguard:
Turtle shell +300 USD

Mother of Pearl Rings:
Around the Rosettes (for Double Top) +300 USD

Armrest:
Rosewood +100 USD

Soundboard Finish:
French Polish +200 USD

Size Customization:
7 Course +200 USD

Handmade Custom Hard Case for Faruk Türünz Ouds: +200 USD

Ofcourse this would all be free of charge.

Anyway I think he shows a lack of integrity and that he is a man who says things he doesn't mean to try and impress or to shock! I never expected bravado from a luthier!!!

previous to his post I had considered his Ouds some of the best, and always thought that when the time came I would like to purchase one, however now I think again about that!

so thats 2 future customers.

Brian Prunka - 9-6-2012 at 06:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oudistcamp

Two weeks ago, Faruk and I spent a full day together calculating and analysing the Brace Tuning Method. It makes so much sense and sheds light as to why certain ouds sound the way they do.

The Brace Tuning Method is openly available to anyone who is interested with an open mind. After fully understanding it, you are free to accept it or not. Prior to that, any criticism of the Method is a display of ignorance tinted by prejudice.

This sounds very interesting. I don't understand the second half of your post, maybe I missed where somebody criticized his method?

Edward Powell - 9-6-2012 at 09:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jass

Humbly,

Jass.

...now, explain to me the difference between your treatment of Faruk and Faruk's treatment of the "prigs"? If Faruk is not allowed to take offence and vocalise that disrespectfully- then why are you?

jack - 9-6-2012 at 09:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jass

They say that the spirit of the maker is in each instrument

How true this is.

suz_i_dil - 9-6-2012 at 09:34 AM

P.s. where suz_i_dill says "arabic, arabian, or whatever else" Arabic is the language and Arabian is anything coming out of the Arab world, just a quick clarification.

Hi Bodhi, I just meant than " arabic " is too dimness to be informative. When you refer to language arabic, shall we understand coloquial or dialectal arabic ? Arabic from Yemen , Tchad, Morocco or Syria ?

As much as there are many arabic dialects, I cannot conceptualize a single normative arabic sounding oud.

A little bit like I hear the terminology of arabic music ... Iraki maqam, wasla from Aleppo, maaluf ? All sound very different.

Edward Powell - 9-6-2012 at 09:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

How thick is thin and how light is heavy?

If some 'Arabic' ouds made today are relatively heavily built with thick sound boards this would seem to be a modern trend - made possible by the relatively late invention of nylon trebles and metal wound basses allowing, in turn, low pitch tuning and greater volume of sound.
In the past 'thin' wood would seem to have been the order of the day for oud construction (as it was and still is for the lute). As 14th C Ibn al-Tahhan al- Musiqi has to say " Seasoned larch wood, without flaws, is cut very thin for the sound board. It should be of two or three pieces rather than one piece. The bowl should be of thinner wood ...".
No indication of thickness measurement of course but my old (early 20th C?) Egyptian oud has a pine sound board of measured thickness averaging about 1.8 mm - somewhat thicker in the central areas and somewhat thinner around the edges. Actual average thickness, however, is somewhat thinner than this as the whole underside of the sound board is scored with fine grooves made with a toothing plane. Total weight unstrung is 0.9 Kg (including the soundboard weight of 0.14 Kg)

By way of comparison, the somewhat smaller 7 course lute, 60 cm string length, that I regularly play weighs - fully strung - 0.56 Kg.

Do we have any similar measured data for Arabic and Turkish ouds?

Sort of...
Of course when you get up to the level of professionally made instruments for top players, then in every case soundboards and bracing will be very light and well made...

...but what I have done extensively in both Istanbul and Cairo (and other places) is to have a look at how common cheap and mid-priced oud are being built.

What I noticed is that if you compare 50 mid-priced ouds in Istanbul with 50 mid-priced ouds in Cairo, you can easily see a clear pattern. The Turkish ouds have 2mm soundboards and max brace heights of 15mm and the 3rd brace is always around 5mm. And no soundboard varnish.

In Cairo the soundboards are more like 2.5mm with heavy varnish. Braces tend to be between 2 and 3cm tall....

jass - 9-6-2012 at 10:00 AM

Hi Edward,

I dont think I have vocalised disrespectfully, and apologise if they come across that way. But that does not excuse Turunz or his words, a case of two wrongs dont make a right. I am also not a professional oud maker, but I would imagine in any field, I would try to not bite the hand that may feed me.

I know you are friends with Turunz, but hope you would see this in an unbiased way. His manner of reply doesnt seem odd to you or offend you? really? You obviously think that he vocalised disrespectfully by your last statement...

"We wound our modesty and make foul the clearness of our deservings, when of ourselves we publish them." - William Shakespeare

)

Jass.

jass - 9-6-2012 at 10:06 AM

Ps. We are ofcourse able to say what we want, the beauty of free speech, but there are consequences to our words. I would imagine Turunz has more to loose than alot of the forum members commenting, by Turunz answering in such a way, this could harm his otherwise good reputation, whereas Im not loosing sleep over this post...

Edward Powell - 9-6-2012 at 10:09 AM

Hi Jass
...scolding someone publicly is not disrespectful?

jass - 9-6-2012 at 10:16 AM

What scolding?

Edward Powell - 9-6-2012 at 11:40 AM

Jass... my own initial "knee-jerk" reaction to Faruk's comments was the same as yours.

But let's just stand back a moment... Let's look at the typical historical development of all instruments: violin, classical guitar... etc for example. These instruments went through a very long period of development until ultimately they reached a kind of peak of perfection in design and from that point onward any improvement became seemingly impossible.

It is the same with various genres of music - there is a long period of development which eventually culminates in a peak.

So perhaps, just perhaps... I really don't know, but perhaps Faruk has come across a discovery that will be that last final push towards bringing the design and construction of the oud to this "final peak"? What Faruk is saying (admittedly not very diplomatically) is that he believes this to be the case.

Personally I think Faruk is onto something important.

Of course it sounds absurd when someone says they know all the secrets, and of course this can never be true literally... however it just might be true that he has discovered a big enough and important enough secret about oud making that all the other secrets pale in comparison.

Only time will tell.

Brian Prunka - 9-6-2012 at 02:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

I really don't know, but perhaps Faruk has come across a discovery that will be that last final push towards bringing the design and construction of the oud to this "final peak"? What Faruk is saying (admittedly not very diplomatically) is that he believes this to be the case.

Actually, I think that this is probably the case, this is why he is able to build such 'pure'-sounding instruments without the peculiar idiosyncrasies of other ouds (either Turkish or Arabic).

A similar comparison might be to Stradivarius, Amati, Gagliano, their violins are quite different and purer-sounding compared to the more idiosyncratic instruments of the medieval and renaissance, even baroque periods.

What is "Turkish-sounding" or "Arabic-sounding" could be considered a collection of charming flaws in acoustical production (from one perspective). That some people like those sounds despite a more acoustically perfect sound being available is due to traditions and cultural associations.

Perhaps a similar analogy: John D'Angelico pretty much perfected the archtop guitar from an acoustical standpoint. His designs were based on those of Gibson, but with a great deal of subtle inquiry into improved acoustical response. Those designs were further refined by Jimmy D'Aquisto and later Robert Benedetto and other modern luthiers.
Yet despite the clarity, projection and purity of sound of a Benedetto, many people still prefer to play Gibsons (especially old ones), because the peculiarities of the sound are appealing for various reasons.

Which is why I have repeatedly said that Turunz makes great-sounding ouds, but they are his own sound.

Jody Stecher - 9-6-2012 at 02:18 PM

It was a joke Jody! I am fully aware you did not mean the pop singer. I thought that it was a good joke but obviously it has been lost on you.

This is probably the first time I have been publicly reprimanded for not being sufficiently aware of tabloid "news". Things may not be as obvious as you think they are. Of course I knew it was a joke and of course I knew you were aware I didn't mean *that* George but I wonder if you were aware of the George I did mean. Your joke was at his expense and at mine and although I thought it humorous, at the same time I found it unseemly to connect the music of The George I Meant with toilet humor. However, am I the only forum member who found some humor in Faruk Tarunz's posts?

Edward Powell - 9-6-2012 at 03:23 PM

I agree with you Jass. i was thinking to write a post in a similar vein. I was also very interested in Faruk's offer;

"Which smart Alec has constructed 1500-1600 ouds in his life and which naive READER is incapable to understand what's going on here. Those gentlemen have never contacted me personally through my e-mail address and they just abuse these forums' pages for priggery.

If they contact me via my e-mail to order an "ARABIC OUD" which will fit to their rudimentary delight, I MAKE THAT OUD FOR THEM WITHOUT CHARGING A PENNY .

But they don't have this sort of self confidence to do this."

So i sent an e-mail asking for my deserved, free "Arabic Oud". needless to say I have had no reply. Perhaps it is my mistake, I didnt write my specifications. So here we go;
I won't ask for something fancy just basic
A double top
Bowl
Burma Teak +300 USD
Purple Heart (Amaranth) +500 USD

Rosette:
Rosewood +100USD

Pickguard:
Turtle shell +300 USD

Mother of Pearl Rings:
Around the Rosettes (for Double Top) +300 USD

Armrest:
Rosewood +100 USD

Soundboard Finish:
French Polish +200 USD

Size Customization:
7 Course +200 USD

Handmade Custom Hard Case for Faruk Türünz Ouds: +200 USD

Ofcourse this would all be free of charge.

Anyway I think he shows a lack of integrity and that he is a man who says things he doesn't mean to try and impress or to shock! I never expected bravado from a luthier!!!

previous to his post I had considered his Ouds some of the best, and always thought that when the time came I would like to purchase one, however now I think again about that!

so thats 2 future customers.

Bodhi, go to Faruk with and open-mind and an open-heart, and you will be hard pressed to find a more generous man anywhere. That's what I did - I asked for nothing except for a little discussion regarding acoustics - - and what I received back for free is worth far more than the oud you are asking for.

jass - 9-6-2012 at 04:28 PM

Unfortunately most oud players arent looking for a "new sound", and I am not denying that Turunz instrument have their own tone, but most arent looking for this. Simply, most players want a turkish oud that sounds like a Manol and and Arabic oud that sounds like a Nahat (or the sound Farid can produce

Unfortunately, Turunz cannot emulate this, because this is due to the secrets of their (Manol and Nahat) construction, people have tried and failed. Just like the Stradivarius, violin makers have tried but they are never the same. Turunz claims he can make any sound you want, this is not true and you can hear it in the instruments. His Turkish ouds dont sound like Manols and his Arabic ouds dont sound like Nahats. That is the issue. Turunz ouds are a certain sound, neither Arabic or Turkish.

Theres no doubt Turunz has made developments in oud making and congratulations to him, but his claims of I AM THE ONLY MAN WHO HAVE EXPLORED ALL THE "SECRETS" OF THE OUD IN THE HISTORY !!!!" are absurd and an example of delusions of grandeur, but he himself knows that he does say "proudly and arrogantly".

Edward, you're still not seeing things unbiasedly, "Final Peak?" You sound like he's invented the oud, or is in a labratory with chemicals on the brink of something that has never been discovered

There will never be a final peak, people drive to constantly better and improve and innovate, thats fine, but he's fr off a final peak, even if he believes so...Do you play a Turunz or own one? From the clips I see from your playing with Mohamed Antar, I believe that might be a Marko oud from Egypt no?
You're just adding to Turunz ego by some of the comments you make towards him, I know you like him etc but you have to be impartial, alot of things you say here are exaggerated and I suspect you kinda know that. There are many great makers at the moment who are honest and hard working and have developed so much in oud construction, perhaps they are just more modest about it, dont have a flashy website and have not the language skills to work these forums. So lets chill out, Turunz is a great oud maker, but one of many. The bench that modern makers are trying to emulate are based on the great masters of the past, which Turunz should be humbled to be even mentioned with them, not claim that he has done more work than them in terms of development. Its a statement that cannot be proven and really doesnt actually matter if youre not getting the results. Just like music, someone can know alot of theory etc but does not neccessarily make them a great musician or have the soul of an artist. Just a few thoughts to ponder.

Peace.

Jass.

Edward Powell - 9-6-2012 at 04:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jass

Peace.

Jass.

Hi Jass... you make good points and your opinions are well respected.

reminore - 9-6-2012 at 06:38 PM

a few observations...perhaps some of the difficulty in this thread is the fact that it is in english...faruk turunz does an admirable job holding his own in english - the subtleties of this conversation would certainly have been different if it had been conducted in turkish! perhaps faruk would have struck the proper tone and his choice of adjectives would have been more exact.

i spent a week with him on crete at ross daly's place and had many conversations with him in turkish - i always found him to be an extremely eloquent speaker with a rich vocabulary of arabic/ottoman turkish words...and a style of politeness in speech that one doesn't hear today....

he also made great efforts to learn greek, something that we greeks enjoyed...

why are people on the forum so hung up on the distinctions between arabic and turkish ouds anyway? what does arabic mean when in the same breath one speaks of a maghrabi and a halabi oud? the culture, language, approach to makam are all completely different...turkish ouds are a relatively new construct - really born out of the design of manolis venios, the greek ottoman luthier in istanbul. we are really talking about istanbul ouds when people use the misnomer 'turkish'...not to mention that most of the great earlier 20th c. makers were armenian! only now are people BEGINNING to research the relationship of oud making in istanbul to the surrounding hinterland and further afield. we still know very little about the development of the oud in what is today turkey...

farukturunz - 9-7-2012 at 12:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by reminore

a few observations...perhaps some of the difficulty in this thread is the fact that it is in english...faruk turunz does an admirable job holding his own in english - the subtleties of this conversation would certainly have been different if it had been conducted in turkish! perhaps faruk would have struck the proper tone and his choice of adjectives would have been more exact.

i spent a week with him on crete at ross daly's place and had many conversations with him in turkish - i always found him to be an extremely eloquent speaker with a rich vocabulary of arabic/ottoman turkish words...and a style of politeness in speech that one doesn't hear today....

he also made great efforts to learn greek, something that we greeks enjoyed...

why are people on the forum so hung up on the distinctions between arabic and turkish ouds anyway? what does arabic mean when in the same breath one speaks of a maghrabi and a halabi oud? the culture, language, approach to makam are all completely different...turkish ouds are a relatively new construct - really born out of the design of manolis venios, the greek ottoman luthier in istanbul. we are really talking about istanbul ouds when people use the misnomer 'turkish'...not to mention that most of the great earlier 20th c. makers were armenian! only now are people BEGINNING to research the relationship of oud making in istanbul to the surrounding hinterland and further afield. we still know very little about the development of the oud in what is today turkey...

Hello to all again!

Unfortunatelly I've squendered the pure energy I was filled in Ross Daly's place in Crete within one week by involving in this thread.

I just used a very heavy beetle on purpose (underlying that I had been proud and arrogant) to crush the "prejudices" by being so rude, ventured to seem having a delusions of grandeur making that funny assertion: I AM THE ONLY MAN WHO HAVE EXPLORED ALL THE "SECRETS" OF THE OUD IN THE HISTORY !!!!

So the components leading the "prejudice" crystallized. Many thanks to those unloaded resentments. There is no need to thank to those who have transcribed the humor in my assertion. There must be an invisible string between our souls. They do not need any "explanation" or clue to know what I am talking about. And of course I feel their warmth through that invisible media.

My appearance on the Mike's Forums and even my name being mentioned, affect as a litmus paper: All the accumulated hidden rage and endearment come to the fore. This only might have arrogated the tone I'd used and delusions of grandeur to me. But the truth is not that. I gratitude all the old masters and have a vast respect to all living colleagues and to their works.

I am easy in my mind for those who have known me will see it at once when making that funny assertion I am tipping them to the wink with sympathy

and pressing the flesh, shaking hands with them with affection. They all know how humble I am and always admiring their efforts I make them feel how I am indebted to their "existence".

With attachment and respect...

A friend of all cons and pros

Khalid_Salé - 9-7-2012 at 12:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

However, am I the only forum member who found some humor in Faruk Tarunz's posts?

No, I found them funny too and I assumed they were tongue-in-cheek (at least a little bit). Maybe the oud world needs a Muhammad Ali (the boxer, not the sultan). I certainly won't be turning down a Tarunz oud if one is sent my way!

Bodhi - 9-7-2012 at 12:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

No Jody I did not know the George Michel you talk of, however this is due to having little interest in Arab music. How does that change the joke? How my Master would say "I am absolutely free to be funny".

Edward,
The free Oud was really not the point. I don't expect to ever receive one nor to those crazy specs. That was sarcasm. I also stated that I think again about Turunz and his Ouds, perhaps if I meet him and he charms me then I can always change my mind. It is not only women who are allowed that.

Now a sincere question:
Which order are you with Mr Turunz?
I spent time with Raik Baba of the Rufai in Istanbul, perhaps you know him?

farukturunz - 9-7-2012 at 01:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé

Maybe the oud world needs a Muhammad Ali (the boxer, not the sultan).

Yeah Khalid_Salé !!!

But not it's me of course... for I'm pretty minion

I may just use a very heavy beetle to crush "prejudices". :bounce:

Edward Powell - 9-7-2012 at 09:17 AM

Which order are you with Mr Turunz?
I spent time with Raik Baba of the Rufai in Istanbul, perhaps you know him?

Hi Bodhi, I don't understand your question... "order"??
I don't know Raik Baba... who is it?

fernandraynaud - 9-7-2012 at 12:06 PM

Quite a thread. I assume all people have funny personality traits, and it's wonderful. Mr Turunz is excitable and assertive, and that's a good thing in an oud, in an exchange of views and in life, when tempered by reason and a kind heart, which Mr Turunz also seems to display.

Maybe this originally wasn't even the right place to get into the "Arabic" vs. "Turkish" discussion, but since it's here, I still would love to hear WHAT Mr Turunz has observed about the timbre of these regional instruments. Can he help summarize these observations, and also, and this is a slightly different matter, how his own Turkish vs. Arabic ouds sound and behave?

This doesn't have to be a futile or irritating thing. For me, this conversation has been enlightening. It led me, for instance, to appreciate more deeply the way my Shehata behaves. It's a peculiar thing, that it has a lot of the top of a Turkish oud, yet at the core seems decidedly Arabic. Eddie's distinction between modern and old Turkish timbres is very important. Jody's vowel analogy is also very good. And I think we can all agree that the best modern ouds are optimized with less slavish attachment to traditional preferences. And yet, they persist. So come on, Mr Turunz, please, don't mystify, share your expertise!

In another thread you mention your further experiments, and the Arabic oud's "percussive attack and shorter decaying of the overtones." Can you go further please?

Jody Stecher - 9-7-2012 at 12:26 PM

No Jody I did not know the George Michel you talk of, however this is due to having little interest in Arab music. How does that change the joke?

What is changed is the nuance of the joke. If you did know of George Michel the joke might be perceived as malicious instead of silly. I was assuming you did not know of him. George Michel the oud player is not merely a sound. He is a real person, a fine and sensitive musician, an excellent teacher and a master of Maqam, and he has done you no harm. Because the joke was in the context of an international forum, to connect an inspirational oud player to the antics of the Other George would be quite shocking. To connect a mere homonym to the Other George is not harmful in intent.

Bodhi - 9-7-2012 at 12:45 PM

I think you are talking non-sense. I think I will reserve my jokes for more reasonable people in the future.

Sorry Edward,

The last two questions were aimed at Mr Turunz not yourself. Didn't mean to confuse.

fernandraynaud - 9-7-2012 at 12:45 PM

Gentlemen, gentlemen! Must I remind you that the "other" George is also a human being, and with some modest skills, even?

To return to ouds, I just listened to clip of the double soundboard oud that Mr Turunz built and says is obviously Turkish, and it has the wonderful growl we were discussing as a modern and not old style Turkish sound. I confess I love that more than the purely midrangey "oo" of the older Turkish Eddie likes. I'd say that by now that's become one distinguishing feature of "Turkish".

Alfaraby - 9-7-2012 at 01:07 PM

Arabs have never agreed upon one thing ever in the past, so why are they supposed to agree upon how an Arabian oud should sound like ? When talking about Arabian ouds, are Iraqi ouds included ? Are Algerians ? Are Mauritanians ? Are Libyans ?

The so-called Arabian oud is what the Egyptian, Syrian, Moroccan, Palestinian players have instilled in our collective memories: Late Sunbaty, Abdelwahab, Qasabjy, & even George Michel, Naqshabandy (RIP) & long-live Naser Houari, Anwar Brahim, Simone Shaheen, etc. among others.
Arabian oud is usually bigger molded (52-3/36/19-20 cm) with 61-63 cm. scale, well-balanced, bassy, a bit percussive, higher action, no buzzing, with fewer harmonic. I may dare to say it sounds closer to a consonant than to a vowel, less delay or sustain, euphonic, mellow, warm, tuneful or whatever vocabulary one may find to translate the Arabic word Rakheem رخيم . This is Arabian oud for me only, while it's not necessarily the same to an Iraqi or a Saudi or a Kuwaiti or an Algerian or whosoever !

No one but who has listened to Arabian oud for a lifetime is capable of defining what an Arabian oud should sound like. Master Faruk is one of the finest living Luthiers, yet he has not seen nor listened to Arabian ouds as much as he did with Turkish ouds. Therefore, he's capable of making great Turkish ouds, but Arabian ? I doubt it very much. Nonetheless, he has surprised me a lot in the recent past, since I last met him in Amman/Jordan back in 2003 !
Time and experience would tell .

Good luck to you all

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

farukturunz - 9-8-2012 at 12:18 AM

Time and experience would tell .

Good luck to you all

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

I totally agree with your clarification of "Arabian". Yes, it is highly vague. Nevermore, it is a big challenge for us (luthiers) to try to make replicas of those typically different "Arabian" ouds or at least try to make some of the ouds we construct sound like the original ones.

Thank you and regards

danieletarab - 9-11-2012 at 03:58 AM

Oh oh.. I didn't expect to give birth to a such intresting and passionate discussion with my very simple question :-) I thank all of you. This discussion has been very enlighting. And I really hope that peace has returned to reign among all the oud players and luthiers!!!

fernandraynaud - 9-11-2012 at 11:41 PM

OK, since Mr Turunz won't risk a characterization of "Arabian" vs. "Turkish" oudishness, I, having trodden the fathoms of the depths, ever with an eye to the advancement of mankind (and something tasty to eat), will unveil before you now the Ancient Arcanum. The salient difference (barring damage, or parts theft), is that the Arabian oud sports an even number of pegs, and the Turkish an odd number.

p.s. it is perhaps this economy in the pegbox that balances the neck not this way but that, and, making the bowl smaller, renders the Turkish player unto characteristically ornamenting "pleeuk, pleeuk, pleeuk" on a string, rather than hocketing between octaves.

farukturunz - 9-12-2012 at 02:34 AM

OK, since Mr Turunz won't risk a characterization of "Arabian" vs. "Turkish" oudishness, I, having trodden the fathoms of the depths, ever with an eye to the advancement of mankind (and something tasty to eat), will unveil before you now the Ancient Arcanum. The salient difference (barring damage, or parts theft), is that the Arabian oud sports an even number of pegs, and the Turkish an odd number.

p.s. it is perhaps this economy in the pegbox that balances the neck not this way but that, and, making the bowl smaller, renders the Turkish player unto characteristically ornamenting "pleeuk, pleeuk, pleeuk" on a string, rather than hocketing between octaves.

I see that my attitude towards your “run in” was directed into a wrong and irrelevant aspect although I had clearly defined it. You are trying to show as if I “wont risk a characterization of “Arabian” vs. “Turkish” “

I haven’t attempted to make an oud to sound “Old Arabian” But it will be a good task for me to make one. It is a very “soft” challange for me. Maybe thanks to your provocative persistence on the issue notwithstanding a post is related to the topic you want to drag, or not; my customer profile would expand. But in spite of endeavours to discredit my "Arabian Ouds" %95 of my customers are Arabs. They never take heed of rumors.

In order to unvail some Ancient Arcanum, you had better activate all your intellectual uptitudes and open your both eyes in a bewildering manner. Advancement of mankind can be understood together with the artifacts’ advancement.

To understand the mechanism and/or the construction of ancient artifacts we need to be equipped with theory and knowledge. Starting from some premises we may reach to some conclusions. We have to have a good command of scientific knowledge in the related area, to propose a true premise.

What I have done so far is to build an applicable theory covering the “Oud Construction Art”. With a great pleasure I want to share what I know about it. I consider it as an assignment I was appointed during my short humanly existence. Eventually I have been shown the necessity of the application of my theory and technique in replicas of old ouds sounding "Old Arabian"

I don’t see the fact that some Arabian Ouds sport an even number of pegs, and the Turkish an odd number in the way you interpret.
The reason is related to the different stiffness of the strings of the two type ouds. Turkish Ouds’ touch, sound and sonority is very soft conveniently to the Turkish soul of music, ornamentation and spritually excellent Turkish tradition. Glissando is one of the techniques used very frequently in the performance of almost every Turkish composition. Hard strings are neither suitable for the application of glissando nor good for Turkish style hammerings (Çarpma)
The reason of the Turkish ouds’ odd numbered pegs (strings) is due to the risk of striking of the bass stirng(s) if they had been a pair.
Arabian Ouds thanks to their stiff strings do not pose risk for striking the bass pair.

With my best regards.

Aymara - 9-12-2012 at 04:31 AM

Arabian Ouds thanks to their stiff strings ...

String stiffness is a matter of personal preference of the player

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion, that THE arabian oud doesn't exist!

There are so many types of arabian ouds ... 5, 6 or even 7 courses, different tunings, different string lengths, different bowls and sound holes, with or without rosettes, floating or fixed bridge, etc..

The only difference, they all have in common to the Turkish oud is a deeper tuning. Even the so called bassier sound doesn't exist in every arabian oud.

What are your thoughts?

And how about Turkish ouds ... are there similar differences? I guess there are less?

farukturunz - 9-12-2012 at 08:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Arabian Ouds thanks to their stiff strings ...

String stiffness is a matter of personal preference of the player

I first realized the bizarre phenomenon 29 years ago that the inner structure of an oud determines the "stiffness" of the strings' oscillation on it. It is not related to the gauge of the strings so it may be bound to personal preference of the player to a limited degree.
I discussed this issue here : http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2945#pid191...

As for your expostulation of THE "Arabian Oud":
There are some different type ouds in terms of the ostensible features and also invisible but perceivable properties they possess.
In relation to the country they are made and the socio-cultural prospects for an "oud" determined by the environment and historical evolution of the "musical life" are some determinants entail the direction of the oud's development and typology of that instrument.

In the Ottoman household ladies used to play oud and their music was in the form of songs in general. In the sultan's palace all forms of Turkish music were performed. New makams were composed there by the composers and by some of Ottoman padishahs. The music was regarded as the finest art along with poesy. Brutal strike of mızrap (plectrum, risha) was regarded as ill-suited to the tenderness of the spiritual pattern of the Ottoman music. The difference in the evolution of the musical instruments may be seen as the indicators of the cultural life's paradigms.

A culture blossomed in the desert no doubt is as meritorious as another culture dwelling in İstanbul situated at the crossroad of many different cultures of many divergent civilizations.

Plugging the strings harshly was a must in the desert to make the instrument produce an audible sound in the open space even if they were dwelling in nomad tents; the musicians felt unrest for being surrounded by the absorbing tent material which was haircloth in general. They developed a special risha technique to overcome these unavoidable factors. Of course the response of the instrument should be proper for that harsh strokes. The luthiers must have found out that the inner structure of an instrument -oud in our case- is the dominant factor for the quality of the response of the instrument rather than the strings' gauge. The more stiff the instrument the more stiff the strings' reaction. It is like the impression when someone bouncing on a bed-spring: The more the spring is soft the more one feels softer reaction and viceversa..the more stiff the spring the more vibrant the bounce...

We now can extract a consequence from the very brief summary above: All the different types of the oud instrument have reasonably comprehensible historical evolution and are products engendered within an inseperable cultural background from the historical line of variation.

With my best regards

Aymara - 9-12-2012 at 09:50 AM

As for your expostulation of THE "Arabian Oud" ...

Thanks, very interesting ... playing in tents ... never thought about it.

But nevertheless ... times changed a bit and so did the oud. I myself for example enjoy arabian ouds with 58,5cm string length, which miss this stiffness and I love it. When I see, that several luthiers build such ouds, I seem to be not the only one loving this "softer touch".

On the other hand I love this deep warm bass

farukturunz - 9-12-2012 at 10:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

As for your expostulation of THE "Arabian Oud" ...

Of course times changed and what provokes this post and causes to drag on that much is the denial of this fact. I appreciate the antique and the philosophy it spreads into our modern conception; the denial of changed taste of sound may be only a personal preference.
Nevertheless what I am induced to defend is just in that very point. I am not cheating while characterizing some of my ouds as "Arabian Oud". I am well aware of that transformation in the oud's physical qualifications and in the transformation of the "popular" sound apprehension.
Many Arab oud players praise the sound of my ouds. Many of them own more than one oud from my workshop.
The only target we consider is customer satisfaction in regards of "business" but in regards of my attachment to the art of luthiery; it is inexpressible...

I was inquired by a very well educated gentleman at the end of my presentation in Amman in 2003. The question was "What do you think about a perfect oud? What are its peculiarities?"

My reply could not contain a certainty because I did not know the peculiarities of the PERFECT OUD. I was not sure and am not if there can be a definition for the perfect oud. So I said " If we admit that we are capable to envision the PERFECT OUD it must have been placed at the "environment of IDEAS" suggested by PLATO in the state of the "IDEAL OUD"

fernandraynaud - 9-12-2012 at 02:39 PM

So in the end what I understand you do in making an Arabian oud, as opposed to a Turkish ones, is to optimize the soundboard bracing for the customary Arabic tunings, to avoid the e.g. slack string phenomenon, but in timbre and playability you don't otherwise cater to that aesthetic. Is that correct? I hasten to add this is in no way finding fault with your practices.

Alfaraby - 9-12-2012 at 02:52 PM

But in spite of endeavours to discredit my "Arabian Ouds" %95 of my customers are Arabs.

"Many Arab oud players praise the sound of my ouds. Many of them own more than one oud from my workshop. "

Master !

I've read this more than once ! So what !
We respect you & your devotion to your career. The fact you've consecrated the oud and dedicated your life to, is stately, very impressive. So nobody tries to discredit any of your ouds, whether Arabian, Turkish, or just Faruk Turunz's ouds. Be sure !

If 95 % of a French perfume's costumers are Japanese, does this make this particular perfume more Japanese ? I wonder !

Arabs, like other nations, like your ouds, notwithstanding the fact they sound Arabian or not, so they own them. Arabs (despite the fact I'm not their official appointed spokesman) just find your ouds to be of great craftsmanship, accurate, smooth, comfortable, easy to handle, clear, clean sounded, etc. Therefore they decide to purchase them & not because they sound Arabian to their ears. They just don't, at least not to the "spokesman's" ! Not having a luthier of your high ranking stature, credit & credibility, they just decide to "smell your perfume" !

Furthermore, this does not give you any more credit, because Arabs, who count 300 million inhabitants, are the main basic stock costumers of ouds, so eventually they consist the major section in your costumers database. On the other hand this may sound like someone is slandering your life project by saying 95 % of your costumers are of one national background, while only 5% are from all other nations &/or races ! I don't know. but this sounds more "discrediting" than any other statement that has been said here, or even insinuated. Excuse me.

Back in 2003, when I had the honor to meet you & discuss oud issues with you in Amman/Jordan, you told me you have made your first Arabian oud (for our both common friend Dr. Michael Maroun, today's dean of Oriental Music Department in "Jerusalem Academy Of Music & Dance"). 9 years later, you declare: "I haven’t attempted to make an oud to sound “Old Arabian” , but it will be a good task for me to make one." So what kind of ouds you were making these last 9 years ? What is Faruk Turunz's Arabian oud you have been selling to your costumers the last decade or so ?

Not discrediting, just asking !

I'm still on hold to hear your coming up old Arabian oud you've promised. Once it sounds Arabian to my flat, twisted, heavy, half deaf nomad's ear, I shall join the 95` club.
I wish I have never read this tent theory. No offense, but one should have read millions of pages about the history of "Arabs & The Oud", before deciding to initiate such a belabour, but this is an oud forum, not a historical nor a cultural one.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

fernandraynaud - 9-12-2012 at 03:48 PM

One of the wonders of the world is most certainly this forum. In spite of enormous differences we manage to always cooperate. I suspect The Tent Theory, may it be enshrined, was advanced in the same absurdist spirit as my Theory of The Unbalanced Pegbox. Humor is a delicate derivative of language, hard to be sure.

The more serious question that emerged here was what constitutes Arabian as opposed to Turkish oud timbre and character, and, without in the least criticizing Mr Turunz, and this being a different question, what he changes in an oud when making it Arabian.

Dearest Mr Turunz, I don't think anyone here is out to discredit what you do! But it is so difficult to define this difference, though many of us have more or less precise inklings, we are hoping your observations will help, even if you choose not to embrace that "ancient Arabic" aesthetic. Are you saying that a greater stiffness of the soundboard (?) is an old Arabic oud trait? I am still hoping for more specifics from you.

farukturunz - 9-12-2012 at 09:53 PM

I hasten to add this is in no way finding fault with your practices.

"Finding fault with your practices"
Is it your primary duty here dearest fernandraynaud?

The only one who could find fault with my practices is I am including my desire in involving these discussions.
Finding faults in every single "object" is so easy. It is possible to find faults in the sequencing of the amino acids in the chromosome.
You would see my general approach to sorting out the faults and "perfection" (although it is non of your claims), if you had troubled yourself in taking it into your consideration my words in the previous parts. "If we admit that we are capable to envision the PERFECT OUD it must have been placed at the "environment of IDEAS" suggested by PLATO in the state of the "IDEAL OUD"

farukturunz - 9-12-2012 at 10:03 PM

Master !

I've read this more than once ! So what !

I am really scared of your rage and exasperation.

I will wait for some time before posting my thoughts dealing with your criticism.

I am sorry if any of my words has offended you.

With respect.

fernandraynaud - 9-12-2012 at 11:37 PM

I have no "duty"here, and I have no idea why you're being sarcastic when i was being supportive. Thank you.

Oud Freak - 9-13-2012 at 01:00 AM

But in spite of endeavours to discredit my "Arabian Ouds" %95 of my customers are Arabs.

"Many Arab oud players praise the sound of my ouds. Many of them own more than one oud from my workshop. "

I do not want to defend Mr. Turunz or anyone. As we know, Mr. Turunz makes great classy ouds in sound and appearance. Unfortunately I have not had the chance to try one yet.
When Mr. Turunz says he makes arabian ouds and later he says he never wanted them to sound old arabian, I see no contradiction since the "old arabian" sound, in my opinion needs to embellish and evolve. I think, by "old arabian sound", Mr. Turunz might have had in mind the sound of the instruments which have the typical dead percussive sound which dies instantly and has absolutely no or a very reduced resonance... So, if mr Turunz makes beautiful looking and sounding and resonating ouds, that does not make them less "arabian" at all...

Alfaraby - 9-13-2012 at 01:35 AM

Please calm down master. I'm not raged nor exasperated. There's nothing personified here, so please skip any personal remark, and if any emerged from my latest post, I hereby renege. The only personal aspect here is that we do respect and give credit to all what you say & do ! So please.
I wasn't nor wanted to sound aggressive, so excuse me. I may have been & am a bit bitter regarding the tent theory, but I can skip this for now, hoping not to get back to this issue once again.

In Arabic we use to say that disagreement does not spoil friendship

. We all are friends here, aren't we ?

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Khalid_Salé - 9-13-2012 at 03:12 AM

Question about tuning and how it affected construction:

It is my understanding that until the modern period, the 'Ottoman' oud was tuned to a very low (A)DEADG to play with the Mansur ney (Rast = G), and that the newer tuning of EABEAD (or C#F#BEAD) was developed more recently to play with the cabaret ensembles that favoured the Bolahenk Ney (Rast = D).* Wouldn't this have had a major effect on how the oud was constructed in Turkey?

*Hence the confusion over Turkish notation for oudists, since the theorists chose to use the G on the western stave to represent Rast (as per Mansur), but the preference for the cabaret oud tuning (Bolahenk) became all-pervasive along oudists.

farukturunz - 9-13-2012 at 04:03 AM

Please calm down master. I'm not raged nor exasperated. There's nothing personified here, so please skip any personal remark, and if any emerged from my latest post, I hereby renege. The only personal aspect here is that we do respect and give credit to all what you say & do ! So please.
I wasn't nor wanted to sound aggressive, so excuse me. I may have been & am a bit bitter regarding the tent theory, but I can skip this for now, hoping not to get back to this issue once again.

In Arabic we use to say that disagreement does not spoil friendship

. We all are friends here, aren't we ?

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

I appreciate your main (longer one) post and take it as a serious criticism to be replied.

Of course we are friends forever and noone here has malicious intention. Maybe due to the patterns used to express the ideas have some vagueness or go beyond the purpose. I will be more careful when choosing my words now and on. This may cost me to spend a good time but sure it is worth to try.

Friendly and faithfully

farukturunz - 9-13-2012 at 04:48 AM