i was wondering if anyone has ever played an oud with hard maple fingerboard. i've seen guitars with maple fingerboards but guitar is fretted anyway.
can maple be as good as ebony? wouldn't it get scratched or damaged soon? if you have any experience, please share it.
one other question. years age, i talked to Moaana Jehad (oud player from Baghdad) he said many ouds made there have "El Sism" fingerboard and bowl. he
said it's a kind of wood which is brought from India. in arabic they write it like "السیسم". does anyone know what
is this wood called in english? i guess it's Indian rosewood...Alfaraby - 12-26-2012 at 12:43 AM
Indeed, "Sisam" is Indian rosewood.
Even ebony & "sisam" fingerboards become worn out as a result of intensive playing and need to be treated/flattened. As hard as maple might be,
it's not as hard as rosewood or ebony, so it's not supposed to bear massive pressure.
Therefore, I wouldn't recommend maple for FB.
Yours indeed
Alfarabyspyblaster - 12-26-2012 at 01:50 AM
Not sure about wood supplies in the Middle East regions but the 'Indian Rosewood' most generally used for guitar construction - including fingerboards
is 'East India Rosewood' (Dalbergia Latifolia). Sisoo (or Sisam) is another true rosewood from India and Iran (Dalbergia Sisoo).
The wear properties of wood are related to its hardness (measured as the force required to press a steel ball of standard size to half its depth into
the wood side grain). Wood is a variable material so hardness can vary within the same species. However some general published data gives hardness
values as, for example 'soft' maple - 950 (pounds force), 'hard' maple - 1450, Sisoo Rosewood - 1500 to1780, East India Rosewood - 3170, Boxwood -
2800.
So 'hard' maple (sugar maple or rock maple) is relatively a bit on the soft side for a fingerboard but not much softer than Sisoo - although the
surface hardness may be considerably increased by application of a thin penetrating 'superglue'.
Light coloured fingerboards have the disadvantage of showing dirt from the fingers and strings. A fingerboard will wear over time regardless of
whether or not metal frets are fitted.
If a light coloured fingerboard is preferred Boxwood is one alternative - hard and close grained it takes a high polish and is nearly twice the
hardness of maple. I have successfully used boxwood for fingerboards.
One attraction of maple is that it is readily available with high grain figuring (flame) which might be considered visually attractive for a
fingerboard. mavrothis - 12-26-2012 at 08:33 AM
This is very interesting, as I've just received some photographs of my latest oud in progress by Dimitris Rapakousios. Needless to say, I am
incredibly excited.
The finger board is a gorgeous maple which will be protected by several coats of finish to keep it clean and wear-free.
The body is very old mulberry with maple spacers/accents, the face is cedar, and the bridge, pickguard and fingerboard will all be curly maple. The
pegs will also be light-colored wood, either boxwood or maple.
I'll post more pictures when it is completed. I really can't believe how beautiful it is looking already...many thanks to Dimitris for such great
attention to detail and for his creativity.
Thanks,
Mavrothispyblaster - 12-26-2012 at 09:03 AM
Thanx a lot for all your useful info friends
it's a bit strange for me coz i have never seen any oud made of sissoo in Iran. i haven't ever heard it's name (maybe it has a different name here).
Iranian ouds' bowls usually are made of maple, walnut and a wood we call "foofel" (فوفل . google translated this name to "Betel nut". i've also seen fingerboards and pegs made of this Betel nut (foofel,
whatever). it's dark brown anyway. Jody Stecher - 12-26-2012 at 09:08 AM
"Sisam" is generally pronounced "shee-shahm" in India and when rendered in the Roman alphabet (as this message is) is usually spelled *shisham*. As
jdowning has pointed out, the word represents the wood of two different trees. One of them (dalbergia latifolia) is generally called "rosewood" in
(most parts of) India, – no matter what language is being spoken – and the other (dalbergia sissoo) is called "shisham". Confusion occurs
because in some regions and languages of western India (Gujarati and Marathi for instance) "shisham" is the word for rosewood (dalbergia
latifolia).
Shisham (dalbergia sisoo) is used to make tabla or dayan, the right hand drum of a the tabla pair.
Shisham and "Indian Rosewood" do not look alike.spyblaster - 12-26-2012 at 09:09 AM
very sexy oud Mavrothis, congratulations
do you know what is the top made of?
Mulberry bowl looks very good. here in Iran they use mulberry for Tar generally. i don't know why they don't use it for Oud. mavrothis - 12-26-2012 at 11:24 AM
Quote:
do you know what is the top made of?
The sound board is cedar. jdowning - 12-26-2012 at 11:54 AM
Apparently Dalbergia Sisoo in Iran is called جگ Jag according to Wikipedia (where it is said to grow in southern Persia). Perhaps the tree
is now extinct in Iran?
The scope for a fingerboard of dramatic appearance is a possibility with hard maple - 'bird's eye' maple might be a good choice as the figuring is
relatively uniform. The highly figured maples may also be more absorbant and allow deeper penetration if any hardening chemicals are used? There are a
number of wood hardeners on the market - designed to harden rotted softwoods (so that they can be repaired rather than replaced). I have some wood
hardener to hand as well as some figured maple so will run some tests to see if chemical hardening will work.spyblaster - 12-26-2012 at 12:37 PM
you're an alive book! thanx a lot
i will ask from my resources about Jag. maybe someone needs to try this on ouds...Peyman - 12-27-2012 at 09:47 AM
From what Naser Shirazi told me, "foofel" is Boxwood. It's dense and durable and in Iran they use it to make parts for setars, such as fingerboards.
It has a nice creamy brown color.Matthias - 12-28-2012 at 08:39 AM
Hello,
in spite as it is written in german, but may be you can use google for translating or know a german speaking person, I can recommend you the following
information page: http://www.holzhandel.de/term/holz_abc/
You get there a lot of technical informations and find the differend kinds with their latin names and the area of growing.
The fingerboards of guitars made from maple which I know are varnished, I suppose with 2 component varnish. The most famous one is the
stratocaster.
I once used boxwood on lutes which worked well. The only problem is the getting dirty by time.
I personal prefer brazilian rosewood ( dalberga nigra ) for fingerboards instead of ebony. My impression is, that this makes less problems as it will
not have so quick "holes". Are there others who had the same experience?
Matthiasjdowning - 12-28-2012 at 12:58 PM
No doubt Brazilian rosewood would make a good fingerboard material as it is darker and less open grained than East India Rosewood. My experience with
the Brazilian variety is that it is an 'oily wood' - so turns beautifully for making pegs but which presents gluing problems - glued joint surfaces
need to be carefully degreased with solvent.
The wood is now a protected endangered species so is costly and difficult to obtain. I purchased mine from a timber importer in the UK in the early
1970's before the CITES restrictions came into force. It was sold (like gold and silver) by weight - I wish that I had bought more at the time!
At the same time I purchased two logs of 'Persian Boxwood' - again sold by weight. Boxwood is yellowish in colour, has no visible grain and is very
hard and so takes a fine polish. Consequently, it takes a long time to season and become stable. Matthias - 1-1-2013 at 02:49 PM
Hello JD,
yes I know that well with the brazilian rosewood. After the rstrictions started, I had to register all my rosewood I had on stock, as otherwise I
would never could use it. I suppose you did the same. And every time I use some of this material, I have to say how much took and a special paper is
made for the instrument which has to stay with it. Without you'll have the risk, that it can be confiscated.
What are your experiences about the different of ebony and braz. rosewood using it for oud fingerboards?
Matthiasjdowning - 1-1-2013 at 04:57 PM
Of the true rosewoods I have not used Brazilian Rosewood for finger boards only East India Rosewood. The ebony that I use for fingerboards is
plantation grown African Ebony that I purchased some years ago from a small importer for reasonable cost. The ebony was only partially seasoned in
sawn billets when received so it was immediately cut into fingerboard blanks and smaller sections for banding etc to more quickly fully air dry -
which, nevertheless, has taken a few years. Unfortunately the importer has long since gone out of business - so there is no more where that came from.
I prefer this species of ebony to East India Rosewood as it is finer grained and uniformly black in colour.
As I understand it, most of the Brazilian Rosewood coming onto the market these days is being recovered from old tree stumps - so perhaps not the same
uniform quality as it once was?
One disadvantage in working rosewoods is that the oils in the wood can cause skin and respiratory allergies - so care in handling and dust extraction
facilities should be used when sawing the material.fernandraynaud - 1-2-2013 at 03:35 AM
For what it's worth, guitar maple necks are fairly common, but maple fingerboards are tricky. Without varnish, they would immediately get ugly grey
spots. With varnish, the fact that the strings contact the frets more than the wood, and that the frets are rather close together, helps, but even so,
the varnish wears, and the maple takes on a dirty look.
[file]25263[/file]
Fretless bass players discovered epoxy and cyanoacrylate coating for fingerboards to prevent rapid wear, and those work well, especially epoxy. But
the softer coatings, like Tung or Tru-Oil, rest on the hardness of the fingerboard, and need to be touched up say once a year, even on rosewood. I
think it will take some effort to prevent string wear and finger oils from turning a maple fingerboard unattractive.
jdowning - 1-2-2013 at 04:09 AM
Here is an interesting paper by the US Forestry Service on the subject of chemically treatment of woods to improve their properties. The procedure for
hardening guitar fingerboards using Methyl Methacrylate seems quite complicated requiring special equipment (heated vacuum chambers) to ensure deep
penetration of the chemical rather than just a thin surface coating. Thin coatings likely will have little immediate or long term effect on hardness.
The report mentions epoxy (again a complex procedure involving lamination of veneers to ensure adequate depth of penetration) but not cyanoacrylate
(superglue). As the latter hardens very quickly (within seconds) I suspect that penetration of the chemical might be shallow - although oud
fingerboards need not be more than a few millimeters in thickness.
[file]25265[/file]fernandraynaud - 1-2-2013 at 02:03 PM
For some reason this page keeps losing the post when it refreshes, but here's a summary. People coat fretless bass fingerboards so wound strings
don't destroy them, same issue as on the oud.
Epoxy is usually brushed on then sanded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgzqTBd1JPQ&feature=youtube_gdat...
A pro job is usually buffed to a glassy smooth. The coating is thick.
There's an epoxy called Envirotex light that can be poured onto a (perfectly horizontal) fingerboard with taped edges, and produces a glossy finish
with no buffing.
Cyanoacrylate Superglue is usually applied as a gel, and spread with e.g. a credit card, then sanded and buffed. Again, the coating is thick, though
it's not as hard as epoxy.
I have not tried this, but a different approach would be to use the "water-thin" superglue. It wicks into sanded wood like a sponge. If enough of it
is used, it stands to reason that it would turn the top layers of the maple into a much harder acrylic-wood blend. Using that approach instead of a
coating wouldn't even require all that finishing. This is worth trying on a test piece of that maple.
reminore - 1-2-2013 at 03:23 PM
for what its worth, فوفل (fufal) is translated as betel in my 19th. c steingass persian dictionary...but i never heard of it
used for anything else than making paan (betel nut chaw - a mild stimulant which is found all across the sub continent).
i just had a new oud made by tasos theodorakis, but with a traditional ebony fingerboard...i just couldn't see infusing wood with solution that
includes a cyanide product - call me old fashioned...fernandraynaud - 1-2-2013 at 03:57 PM
It's not cyanide ;-) The way superglue works is by having reactive C-N tails on an acrylic polymer that bond easily to other materials. These are
called "cyano" bonds, but have nothing to do with cyanide. Even ebony wears, and will require re-leveling if no coating is used. Since that's tricky
to do right, some prefer a bit of prevention. jdowning - 1-2-2013 at 04:49 PM
Curious that there have been zero downloads of the previously posted informative paper by the experts in the US Forestry Service on chemical treatment
of woods - including a specific reference to guitar fingerboards
So here it is again for those interested and wishing to learn something.
[file]25276[/file]reminore - 1-3-2013 at 06:53 AM
that's actually not quite correct. the jury seems to be out on the 'complete' safety of cyanoacrylates...cyanide is present in all compounds of the
cyano group...as to how dangerous it is...depends on who one speaks with, industry or environmentalists...again, personal choice!Brian Prunka - 1-3-2013 at 09:43 AM
Reminore,
I think you are being unduly concerned. The jury is not "out" regarding the cyanide component, unless you disregard scientists in favor of quacks. It
is basic questions of organic chemistry, not something that is subject to a lot of differing viewpoints. I am not an expert, but it is quite clear
that this is not a matter of debate in scientific circles. There is a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering by non-experts who do not understand
the chemistry involved and apparently won't listen to those who do.
The EPA, hardly a spokesperson for "industry" has declared beyond any doubt that there are no risks from CA (other than relatively obvious minor ones
of accidental gluing, inhaling fumes, and the strange reaction it has to cotton).
"Cyanide" refers to a carbon atom triple-bonded to a nitrogen atom. This structure occurs in many different compounds, and in most cases is harmless
because it is not accessible to our body.
If you really believe that CA is dangerous, you should also avoid brussels sprouts, almonds, cabbage, cauliflower, cassava and many other foods
(including anything fortified with iron, like many breakfast cereals), also regular table salt usually has it. Cyanide is also present in many
prescription medications, so check your medicine cabinet. It's present in the pits, leaves and wood of many fruit trees and their fruit (apple,
cherry, peach, etc).
Remember that dose makes the poison, so even if miniscule traces of cyanide somehow were being absorbed, our body has the natural ability to fight
small amounts of organic toxins without ill effect. Cyanide in particular is pretty easily cleared from our bodies by being converted into harmless
compounds, it doesn't build up over time.
My point is that if these cyanide compounds were dangerous, we'd all be dead already, because they are all over the place including much of the food
we eat. But we're not, so I bet the scientists are right.reminore - 1-3-2013 at 04:42 PM
ok brian and fernandreynaud, i'll take both your words on it regarding the ca compound - i know that many toxic substances exist even in a 'natural'
form...
that said - the EPA does not have the backs of the american people - just look at bisphenol A in plastics that is still in use (the EU outlawed its
use years ago). things are not quite as black and white as you believe brian, which is evidenced by the speed with which products and medicines are
approved and then removed from the market...(most american houses built in the 70's used ureaformaldehyde insulation -now known to be a carcinogen-it
was also EPA approved).
anyway, before i start sounding like a kook, i'll stop here. and the irony is, i'm not even a fanatic green, but more fatalist in my outlook...Brian Prunka - 1-3-2013 at 05:37 PM
You're mistaken if I believe that things are black-and-white. Of course the EPA is not 100%, and often caves to industry pressure in certain areas,
but read their assessment of BPA:
It clearly accepts that there are problems and risks with BPA, the question is whether they consider the risks great enough to ban the substance. I
agree with you that it should be banned and that the EPA is moving too slowly (as it often does). fernandraynaud - 1-3-2013 at 08:27 PM
But we were talking about superglue. There is no "cyanide" in cyanoacrylate, and besides, the toxic action of free cyanide, if there were any, is due
to its instant reactivity, it could not have any cumulative effects. Brian is 100% correct. It cannot linger precisely because it reacts and thus
ceases to be cyanide.
The concept of "chemicals" being a threat to "natural" organisms is part of a popular romantic conspiracy theory. It ignores the most fundamental
fact, that there is nothing more or less "natural" in nature; it's all one big chemical stew, including our bodies. Plant matter can be just as deadly
as man-made compounds, witness Socrates drinking 100% natural organic hemlock. Brian Prunka - 1-3-2013 at 09:02 PM
Check out the molecular structure of cyanoacrylate. It absolutely does contain cyanide.
But as noted, it is not free, and is inaccessible. fernandraynaud - 1-3-2013 at 09:13 PM
In that paper, acrylates are very deeply absorbed into wood prepared in a vacuum. Having used surface coatings of polymerizing oils, I'm thinking of
doing the next fingerboard by cyanoacrylate impregnation, instead of struggling with a coating. It doesn't even have to penetrate very deeply. I
recently noticed how amazingly well the thin superglue wicks into hardwood. It takes a light sanding to remove surface oil barriers and present a more
porous surface. Then probably just wet the fingerboard straight from the applicator tip. Any dribbles over the edge could be cleaned up with acetone,
so taping the sides would probably be counterproductive, as it would create a wicking channel. Finally sand with fine sandpaper and polish to the
desired gloss. I don't have a piece to try it on, maybe someone does? fernandraynaud - 1-3-2013 at 09:29 PM
Brian, you and I both know it doesn't "contain" cyanide, it has cyano groupings in the molecular structure. Countless compounds, including vitamin B12
supplements, have such structures. We could even say that such vitamin b12 IS a cyanide, but not that "it contains" cyanide. The distinction is
important, because it's the free reactive CN that's toxic, and it's what people think of, as in potassium cyanide or hydrogen cyanide gas. The
question was whether handling wood impregnated with cyanoacrylate presents any risk of absorbing free cyanide, and it seems impossible. If nothing
else it is widely used in dentistry and surgery.
Brian Prunka - 1-4-2013 at 09:48 AM
Vitamin B12 has no "cyano groupings" in its naturally occurring forms, nor in the form it is used by the body. The cyanide is introduced when it is
synthetically manufactured, and in this case it actually does convert to free cyanide in the body (because the usable B12 has no cyanide, the body
takes the B12 and leaves the cyanide free).
It would seem in principle that cyanide poisoning via B12 supplements would be possible, but it doesn't happen even with absurd doses (with the
exception of people who already have elevated levels of cyanide, like smokers). This is because the body will ignore excess B12 and pass it through,
so the cyanide is never freed from the excess doses.
For the same reason, (natural, cyano-free) B12 is actually used to treat cyanide poisoning, because when the body cannot process any more B12, it
passes through harmlessly (doesn't build up in the body). Since it can bond with cyanide, the excess B12 traps the cyanide and it is then safely
excreted from the body.
It is more misleading to say that CA has "no cyanide" and "has nothing to do with cyanide". It's more meaningful to acknowledge that chemically it
contains the same molecular structure found in "cyanide", but that structure can be dangerous or harmless depending on the rest of the structure of
the compound because it is primarily hydrogen cyanide that is very dangerous to humans.
In the case of CA, it is clear that the cyanide has nothing to do with hydrogen cyanide nor any variant dangerous to humans.
We're on the same side here, Fernand, just a disagreement on terminology. In the face of the cyano-paranoid, I don't think just repeatedly asserting
"it has nothing to do with cyanide" will open any eyes.
This has been one of the more interesting OT digressions in a while (good think it's not jdowning's thread)!
jdowning - 1-4-2013 at 10:41 AM
Brian Prunka - "(good think it's not jdowning's thread)!"
Fame at last!!
fernandraynaud - "I don't have a piece to try it on, maybe someone does?"
I am not a superglue user but did suggest at the start of this thread last year that the stuff might be used as a surface hardener for maple as well
as proposing to test wood hardeners for their effectiveness (or otherwise) in hardening maple. However, as wood hardness is measured quantitatively by
an indentation test, I doubt that a thin surface coating of either chemical would have any significant impact on measured hardness. Maple is difficult
to penetrate to any depth - even with low viscocity fluids - outside of a pressure chamber. I also doubt that thin (and fast setting) superglue will
have any supernatural penetrating power when it comes to soaking into hard maple.
However - as I do have plenty of highly figured soft and hard maple - rather than theorise about what may or may not happen I shall run some
comparative hardness tests on maple treated with superglue. I have other more pressing priorities at present but will present my test results some
time later as a separate topic on this forum.
As superglue can cause serious skin allergies on contact and the fumes respiratory problems, some care will be necessary in conducting the trials
(i.e. use of a fume extraction hood and nitrile gloves). Whether or not skin dermatitis can occur when handling the cured chemical over time (e.g. on
a treated fingerboard) - I will gladly leave to others to find out!
reminore - 1-6-2013 at 03:04 PM
as the voice of the 'cyano paranoid' - i can only say, 'watch the sarcasm fernand', you remember how the turunz affair spiraled out of control... fernandraynaud - 1-6-2013 at 05:19 PM
I sure wasn't contributing to that one spiraling. And where do you read sarcasm in what I said here? You mean by saying organic plant matter can be
toxic? fernandraynaud - 1-7-2013 at 01:45 AM
Thanks, John, that's great.
I don't know much about wood mechanics, but I wonder if hardness, as measured by the ball test, would detect increased resistance to string damage,
which seems to involve some sort of abrasion.
The polymerizing oils for instance protect the fingerboard by providing a sacrificial layer that wears and needs to be periodically refreshed. With
thick epoxy and superglue coatings, I'm not sure. People have said they wear very slowly. The way I imagine superglue impregnation (perhaps) working
is by penetrating the top layer of wood and creating a tougher, more abrasion-resistant "petrified wood" or "plastic wood" layer. But I don't know if
it would necessarily be more resistant to indentation by the ball drop method. Is resistance to abrasion the same thing as the "hardness" of a wood
type?
jdowning - 1-7-2013 at 02:06 PM
Hardness of a wood (or metal) is a measure of the resistance of the material to permanent (plastic) deformation due to localised pressure. It can also
refer to the resistance a material has to wear by abrasion.
Manufacturers of wooden flooring use the hardess test as a guide to the durabilty of a wood species from both indentation and abrasion wear.
Hardness is not a fundamental property of a material but depends upon its elasticity (ability to fully recover from a pressure loading - represented
by Young's Modulus), its yield strength (the point at which it begins to deform plastically) and its ultimate tensile strength (the point at which it
will break under tensile loading).
Both metal and wood hardness testing and measurement involve forcing a hard metal ball or diamond point into the material at a known load and
measuring the diameter or depth of the resulting indentation. One exception is the Shore Scleroscope test that depends upon the material elasticity -
a weight being dropped onto the material and the height of rebound measured. As far as I know this latter test only has an application for metals.
Unlike the other hardness tests it leaves no mark on the surface of the material.
For macro indentation tests the material under test must be between seven to fifteen times thicker than the depth of indentation - so that there is no
influence of the supporting base on the results.
Any surface damage to a fingerboard (underneath the string positions) will be indentation of the wood caused by pressure by the fingers on the string
- not abrasion (as there is no relative movement between a string and surface of a fingerboard). The higher the string tension the greater the
pressure?
Out of curiousity, I examined all of my instrument fingerboards (guitars, lutes and vihuelas) for indentation damage underneath the strings - all to
no avail. All that I could find was discolouration on the fingerboards between the string courses.
The only scarring found was on an old classical guitar purchased at a yard sale some years ago. Built in the 1960's it showed signs of having been
well used including longitudinal grooves and scarring of the fingerboard. However there were no grooves in evidence directly underneath the strings
(although there were slight grooves in the metal frets) - only between the strings. I have to conclude that the scarring was due to the former player
having long nails on the left hand that had caused the scarring or scratching (i.e. actual abrasive wear resulting in loss of material).
So the question is - does the pressure on strings being pressed onto a fingerboard by the fingers really create physical grooves in the wood over
time?
fernandraynaud - 1-8-2013 at 02:01 PM
You're quite right to go back to square one. On a fretted instrument it's not the same, the frets take most of the beating.
Looking first at my 1963 Martin D-18, what I see is indentation from fingernails, most pronounced in the rosewood before the 1st fret. The hand is
most angled there and the index finger's nail gouges the fretboard as pressure is applied, especially with vibrato. Second image, on my Gibson 1965
ES335 the frets are lower, wider and softer. But again, the rosewood fingerboard right under the string is the least worn.
On a fretless fingerboard one doesn't rock the string side to side for vibrato, but there has to be some side to side settling as well as motion fore
and aft, as the finger pushes the wound strings down.
Third image, we have a Sukar plain walnut fingerboard with some initial visible wear. Fourth a short scale fretless bass, rosewood coated with
polymerizing oil. The coating appears to be weathering the wear, but time for a refresh. Fifth, a rosewood 6 string fretless, that has had little play
since the fingerboard was sanded, but we can see some initial wear. This in spite of using flatwound strings. With roundwounds, the wear gets quite
dramatic, whence the idea of coating with epoxy.
I'm not sure what the mechanism of wear is, whether strictly indentation or some combination of factors, but the result is a "grooving" that gets in
the way of playing as the strings seat in the grooves and then start to buzz. Edward Powell - 1-8-2013 at 03:05 PM
I had an oud from Khalid in Morocco with a beech FB and shellac... nice oud but bad FB. The shellac is a disaster for FB... just wares off in a
flash... and beech is too soft (beech has same hardness as maple I'd say)... also this oud had beech pegs which kept breaking.
jdowning - 1-8-2013 at 04:53 PM
The first image posted by fernandraynaud is similar to that observed on my old beaten up classical guitar - and confirms that it is fingernails that
are the problem not the strings that are causing fingerboard damage!
Simple, obvious solution folks - save yourself some future cost in fingerboard repair by keeping your fingernails cut short so that they do not
scratch and gouge material from the fingerboard!
Not sure what relevance string damage on a fretless guitar fingerboard has to do with that of an oud but it looks from the images to be minor compared
to the fingernail gouging problem. Note also the open longitudinal grain of the fingerboard material that will no doubt add to the problem if a string
happens to settle into an open grain where the wood is softer. The materials used for the fingerboards on those instruments would seem to be
particularly poor in this respect.
Perhaps string wear damage on an oud fingerboard is of little or no significance even in the long term - especially if a hard close grained hardwood
is used?
Beech is quite a soft hardwood but no point in guessing. For hard maple the Janka hardness number is 1450 lbs- force and for American and European
Beech 1300 lbs-force - so Beech is softer. These numbers are average published values so can vary somewhat either way dependant upon the variety of
the species.
Too soft for pegs also in my experience.
fernandraynaud - 1-9-2013 at 12:01 AM
John, I don't understand what you're talking about.
The problem with (fretted) guitars is FRET wear.
As the frets wear, strings start to buzz. The fingerboard
marks are indeed from nails, and immaterial as they affect
nothing. Strictly cosmetic.
You're not sure what relevance a "fretless guitar" has?
John, there IS a photo of an oud there. And I'm sorry I
can't show you a more deeply worn fingerboard, I try to
prevent it.
The (very real) problem with strings wearing down finger-
boards on fretless bass, oud and other unfretted instruments
is the same, and hardly "of little to no significance". If it was,
why on earth would people go to the trouble of re-leveling
their fingerboards? Repeatedly? I think it was David B. whose
Sukar Model 1 ran out of planable fingerboard after the third
leveling.
I was showing you the TYPE of wear, at an early stage. It's
under the strings, and not due to fingernails.
The rosewood surfaces at that magnification are pretty typical,
the little channels are in the nature of the wood unless it's filled.
You can see those and some misc scratches that have no impact.
But you can also see the marks caused by the strings, that later
develop into deeper grooves, causing buzzing.
jdowning - 1-9-2013 at 07:40 AM
Sorry that you do not understand fernandraynaud.
I do not see why there would be more stopped string pressure on the strings of a fretless instrument than one that is fretted - string tensions being
the same, higher string tension equating to higher downward pressure on a string in order to maintain firm contact with the fingerboard surface.
The fretless guitar images sure don't look like a typical oud set up to me. What are the string tensions on those heavy gauge, all metal strings?
If Sukar oud fingerboards are experiencing significant (and rapid) grooving due to string pressure (as recorded in your case - and that of David B
apparently) then the problem likely is with the materials used by Sukar for fingerboards. You say that the grooved fingerboard on your oud is made
from walnut. Dependant upon the variety of true walnut, Janka hardness could be in the range of 900 to 1200 lbf compared to about 1450 for hard
maple, and 3000+ for East India Rosewood - so it is perhaps not surprising that you are experiencing these problems. Solution - replace the
fingerboard with a harder wood such as East Indian Rosewood or better still one of the true Ebonies (genus Diospyros)
True rosewoods (genus Dalbergia) can range in Janka hardness from around 1500lbf (Sissoo rosewood - used a lot for oud construction it would seem) to
about 4,700 lbf for African Blackwood. You might have some difficulty wearing grooves due to string pressure on an oud fingerboard made from the
latter material but less so perhaps with one made from Sissoo which is about the same hardness as hard maple.
Applying thin surface coatings of whatever substance to a fingerboard made of a relatively soft material would seem to be a temporary expedient at
best. The thin coating - unable to provide any significant structural support to the fingerboard surface under pressure loading - will just give way
as the softer underlying wood of the fingerboard itself yields to the pressure.fernandraynaud - 1-9-2013 at 01:59 PM
You're not easy to please, John. You seem to naysay a lot these days. I was trying to be helpful by showing you examples.
There is (in practice) no string wear on the fingerboard of a fretted guitar. Frets get worn.
Fretless bass strings, typically 0.030" to 0.130", tension 13 to 23 Kg. Roundwounds gouge the fingerboard much faster. Flatwounds are kinder, but
still ... this fingerboard is probably buzzing. On oud the grooving looks different. I'm sorry I just don't have a photo.
[file]25330[/file]
I don't know really what the Sukar 212 fingerboard is made of. I thought ebony, but allegedly he doesn't use it. It's been called "walnut of lions" or
"oily walnut". There are varieties of walnut harder than typical ebony, say 3600 Janka. The idea of replacing it makes no sense, it's perfectly
serviceable and will last years. If treated it will hopefully weather it better. Ovation uses vacuum-treated walnut.
Do you see the 4 string bass example? The coating seems to cushion the wear, and it gets refreshed say once a year. The underlying rosewood isn't
soft, it's not like a marshmallow under a candy layer. More like the other way around. The coating worked well over 3 years on a heavily played Model
1 which I no longer have. The fingerboard showed almost no wear.
The question was whether light sanding then impregnating with "water-thin" superglue might be an alternative, and you offered to try it.
jdowning - 1-10-2013 at 04:20 PM
If you mean by 'naysaying' that I displease you by presenting an alternative perspective on a particular topic other than your own view fernandraynaud
then I suppose you may be correct - but no need to take this personally - I am just interested in trying to get at the 'truth' (not you) by an open
exchange of ideas and discussion and, at the same time, hopefully avoiding the perpetuation mis-information and luthier mythology - deliberate or
otherwise.
You state categorically that "there is no string wear (in practice) on a fingerboard of a fretted guitar" but your experience in the matter must be so
limited to surely invalidate such a statement (you can only possibly have first hand knowledge of an extremely small percentage of the total number of
fretted guitars in the world).
Your statement caused me to look again in much closer detail at the fingerboards of the three fretted, nylon strung classical guitars that I own (but
never use these days). The first guitar that I owned - purchased in 1961 by a self taught beginner without any idea of what to look for - was a low
end student guitar made by the Tatay sons factory in Spain. This guitar - although made from 'solid' wood was unsatisfactory in many ways both from
material quality and construction. Nevertheless it served for three years and beyond until I figured I could make a better guitar and did so. At the
same time I became interested in the lute and so - at a time of transition until I could get around to building my own lute - the guitar was converted
to a six double course instrument before being abandonned.
Examining the fingerboard of this guitar now under magnification I find string scarring on the fingerboard at the second to sixth fret for the sixth
course, copper wound, at the third fret for the third course copper wound and even at the third fret for the first course smooth plain nylon.
The attached images show some of the wear patterns (the parallel double grooving is a consequence of the later conversion to double courses). Low
tension nylon strings were fitted at the time (under 5Kg ?). The wood of the fingerboard cannot be identified but like the rest of the wood from which
the guitar was made was of low quality - perhaps some kind of soft pseudo mahogany?
So why the localised fingerboard wear due to the strings? One key factor may be that the frets are made of brass - hard enough to show no wear from
the strings (as usually found in the softer 'nickel silver' type metals used for frets in higher quality instruments). This means that the minute (in
amplitude) transverse and longitudinal string vibrations were likely transferred over the hard frets directly into the finger board wood where -
together with finger pressure on the string, the fingerboard wood was eroded. Note that the fingerboard appears to have some kind of brittle varnish
type coating that, nevertheless, and not surprisingly, failed to prevent this damage. The other key factor is that the cheap wood of the fingerboard
is likely too soft to withstand the string pressure (although its specific hardness is at present untested and so unknown).
Moving on to the question of Sukar oud fingerboards - if you have no clue what the material is it is fernandraynaud you obviously possibly objectively
assess how durable it might be in service. Sukar calls the wood "walnut of lions" which sounds like sales talk for the uninitiated to me as no such
walnut species seems to exist. More likely "oily walnut" is nearer the truth being simply soft walnut 'tarted up' with some kind of drying oil
(hopefully not 'snake oil' - just kidding!) applied to darken the appearance of the wood not to improve hardness?
I do not know of any true walnut species that even approaches a Janka hardness of 3600. Perhaps 'Brazilian Walnut', as it is known in the trade is
causing confusion? - but this wood is not walnut.
If Ovation uses 'vacuum- treated' walnut for fingerboards then this suggests that they are impregnating the wood with a chemical (methyl
methacrylate?) to make it acceptably harder - as is the case with some treated Maple guitar fingerboards. This is a good way to make low cost softer
woods like Walnut or Maple hard enough to make sericeable fingerboards.
In any case fernandraynaud if you feel that the fingerboard of your Sukar model 212 is already hard enough to be perfectly serviceable for years
(without any form of treatment) what is the problem?
Do I see the images of the 4 string bass? Yes - looks like a string imprint in a soft material. But what is the point of spreading a 'marshmallow soft
coating over a (hard) candy layer' if you reckon that the hard candy layer (the fingerboard wood) is itself hard enough for the job?
[file]25350[/file]fernandraynaud - 1-10-2013 at 05:50 PM
Don't people in practice play guitar by fingering right behind the fret?
Feedback from Sukar owners is that these dark fingerboards last a long time. The "of lions" was a literal translation from the Arabic, I don't know
what it really is. Every fingerboard wears. I would prefer slowing it down if possible. Are you saying that it's "of no real significance",
impossible, or ?
A (lighter wood) Sukar Model 1 fingerboard, owners have said, does not normally last 3 years of 3+ hours a day playing without serious grooving . My
coated Model 1 did. I think Baglamatzis has it now. jdowning - 1-11-2013 at 07:57 AM
Yes - theoretically a string should be stopped immediately behind a fret but in practice the actual width of a fingertip or other physical limitations
(hand flexibility/ complexity of chord shape/fret spacing etc.) means that a string will be stopped some distance behind the fret. For example look at
the image that you previously posted of your Martin D-18 guitar fingerboard and note the set back from the frets of the fingernail scarring and
staining left by the fingertips. My images are at a greater scale of magnification but I would suggest that set back from the frets in the range of 5
mm to 10 mm would not be unusual for a guitar of say 63 cm string length. Some of the fingerstains on the Martin fingerboard seem to extend back to
around the mid point between the frets?
I am only suggesting that a very hard fingerboard material will likely be much more resistant to string wear and last longer (perhaps for the useful
life of an instrument) than a softer material without need for repair or application of maintenance intensive sacrificial protective coatings (if that
is their function). Hard tropical hardwoods are costly and becoming increasingly difficult to obtain so artificially hardening of softer, cheaper and
readily available softer woods such as maple or walnut by complete chemical impregnation would be the way to go. I do not currently have any
information about the % increase in hardness that might be achieved by full chemical impregnation techniques.
Has anyone asked the Sukar factory to provide precise information about the woods they use in the construction of their instruments - using the
internationally accepted terminology for description of wood species? It would be unreasonable to expect costly high grade woods to be used on the
cheaper grade of oud coming out of the factory but customers should at least be reliably informed about what they are paying for and getting. A worn
out fingerboard after only three years use playing three hours a day seems to me to be a rather poor life suggesting use of an unsuitably soft
fingerboard material. Does the Sukar factory provide harder grade fingerboards for extra cost as an option for each model?fernandraynaud - 1-11-2013 at 10:58 PM
As far as i know, nobody but Luttgutt has ever obtained ANY information from Sukar. It would appear that going to Aleppo to try again might be tricky.
The model 1 is the least expensive oud he offers. 3+ hours a day for 3 years is a lot of playing. Ask David B. about typical wear. The fact remains my
coated one was unscathed. Applying some Tru-oil like on rifle stocks once a year is a small price.
Sukar's higher end models like the 212 in the photo do use a harder darker wood, though who knows what it is. It's academic, it works, nobody's
ripping it out.
But now that we agree that widespread use of the tropical hardwoods is becoming a bit impractical, maybe we can figure out how to best retro-improve
the durability of what we get?
jdowning - 1-12-2013 at 06:43 AM
Perhaps the fingerboard on your Sukar model 1 just happened to be of suffient hardness without need for any coating at all - given the wide variation
of physical properties of wood species? How hard is 'Truoil' as a finish anyway?
"maybe we can figure out how to best retro-improve the durability of what we get?" . As already mentioned I intend to undertake the surface treating
wood samples (particularly Maple) with a variety of chemicals to determine if in depth penetration is possible together with significant hardening.
When I eventually get around to it, the results will be posted for general information - subject of a separate topic in this forumLuttgutt - 1-12-2013 at 08:08 AM
Hi Tony and all!
Yes, per today I own 6 Sukar ouds. And the wood on the finger boards is
1- Eboney on 3 ouds
2- Dark Rosewood (don't know wich tipe) on one oud
3- Dark walnat on one.
4- and lighter walnat on one.
the oldest oud (eboney) is from 2008. The newest (also eboney) is from 2010.
I play about 2 hours a day. That is 20 min per oud per day in average.
And I have no problems with any of the fingerboards (the shellac couting goes out fast under the strings, but the wood itself is still free for
rippels. None what so ever).
I have used 6 coats of true oil on the rosewood. And I am pleased with the result (no trace under the strings whatsover!).
But I have to say that I always keep my nails short :-)
Best regards to youfernandraynaud - 1-12-2013 at 11:04 AM
Hey Geko, what bringeth you out of the woodwork? Do you know what Ibrahim uses on the standard 212 and 14? It looks like a low grade ebony, but ?
John, I haven't yet tried Tru-oil, but it's what everybody uses on both their prize rifles and utilitarian AKs. What i used was labeled as "tung
oil". jdowning - 1-12-2013 at 01:20 PM
When I had an interest in target shooting with antique firearms over 20 years ago I did some gunsmithing work. A replica percussion lock, black
powder, 'plains rifle' that I made then had a black walnut stock that I finished with 'Truoil'. As I recall the stuff was easy to apply and dried
quickly (unlike the traditional linseed oil finish) and gave the required matte hand rubbed finish. A shiny varnished gun stock looks terrible. The
purpose of the oiled finish is to waterproof the wood not harden it. Not sure what AK 47's are finished with, however.
Must take a look at that gun again to remind myself how the finish looks. I do not have any 'Truoil' but I did post some time ago on the forum an
'equivalent' home brew version.
Still not sure from luttgutt's observations if fingerboard wear (if any) is in any way reduced due to the application of either an oil or varnish
coat. The shellac coating does not appear to have made any difference (being softer than the underlying wood?). After 6 coats of Truoil on the
rosewood there is no sign of wear - but how does this compare to the fingerboard before it was treated with Truoil? Did it show excessive wear before
being treated? Was excessive wear the reason for treating the fingerboard with 6 coats of Truoil - or did it just seem like a good idea at the time?fernandraynaud - 1-12-2013 at 11:39 PM
The better AKs are probably French Polished. Luttgutt - 1-13-2013 at 05:50 AM
Hehe.. It is just that I missed you guys :-)
1- I no longer sure that it was True oil that I used. I used something we call Danish Oil. Maybe it was Tung oil?
2- The rosewood finger board I use it on was fine (the oud was new). It was Tony here who convinced me of trying it over 2 years ago :-)
And I am happy with result. In the sense that it is been 2 years, and still I cannot see traces from the strings!!
While shellac goes after a couple of days.
But it was boaring waiting for it to dry (6 coats), and it smeld bad many weeks. So I never got the "energy" to use it again :-)
3- Tony, The number 212, refures mainly to 3 things only:
First: the body is dark walnut.
second: It has 30 ribs.
Thurd: Eboney tuninig pegs
Number 14 refurs to:
First: the body is dark walnut
Second: It body is all dark walnut (no birch between the ribs!)
Thurd: Eboney tuning pegs.
p.s. 211 is the same, but with 15 ribs.
And that is it. It says nothing about fingerbord, fixed or floating bridge, the pick gard and so on...
4- But you can always tell Mr. Sukar what you want.
You can ask for eboney fingerboard, you can ask for different sizes, different combinations.
And you 'll always get what you order.
(but mind the language misunderstanding!! :-))
He is REALLY a wonderfull and trust worthy person to deal with.
For eksemple, he always sends me the Ouds BEFORE I pay!!
If the oud is OK, I pay him.
If not, I send it back and he tries again!! Without any "buts" and excuses.
That is HIS policy. At least that is how he delt with ME (*my own experience!).
Danish oil is just linseed oil mixed with an oil varnish - used as a hand rubbed finish on wood. Linseed oil takes a lifetime to dry (if it ever does)
so the varnish speeds up the drying time to a few hours. Tung oil is also used in place of linseed oil for these formulations. TruOil is just another
variation of the same thing.
A good research paper investigating various mixes of oil/varnish finishes was published in the Fine Woodworking magazine some years ago (1970's ?)
"Oil/Varnish Finishes - experiment to find the right proportions" by Don Newell.
For information - I found that test sample of walnut finished with several coats of home-brew 'TruOil' varnish (see the link in the previous post) so
did an indent hardness test on the varnished and unvarnished areas of the sample.
The attached magnified images of the indentations show that the hardness is not affected by the varnish layers (according to the 'Downing' hardness
tester values, where relative hardness is represented by the square of the indent diameter. The larger the number the softer the material. See http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13647)
Not a surprising result perhaps with this 'macro' hardness test where the depth of the indent is half the measured diameter of the indent (i.e. 1.5
mm) - much more than the thickness of the varnish coat. The varnish layer is here - unable to provide additional structural strength to the wood -
just gives way under the load as the supporting wood cells collapse.
[file]25416[/file]
[file]25418[/file]fernandraynaud - 1-15-2013 at 03:32 PM
@john, As you note, the coating is thin, and the punch is smashing through. What I've seen happen on coated oud and bass fingerboards is that the
strings don't crush the substrate. After a while they start to wear the coating, so it's no longer perfectly smooth if you look very closely under the
right light, and it's time to wipe on some more, which merges with the old and you're back to a level surface. The refresh sets much much faster, it's
a trivial operation, almost like applying a polish to the bowl when changing the strings. Japan Dryer can be added to speed up setting.
I think that with huge steel round-wound bass strings with sharp windings under enormous tension, you might start crushing the wood, but I never dare
use such strings.
@Luttgutt like I said, you're the Sukar connection. Lovely playing, but I can't see the fingerboard. I still wish i knew what my 212 and 14
fingerboards are made of.
[file]25426[/file] This is from the model 14. Looks like my Shehata's ebony fingerboard.
The question of course on your coated fingerboard that shows no wear, is how much others that you have (of similar wood) do show wear.
jdowning - 1-16-2013 at 12:24 PM
Determination of wood hardness by 'macro' indentation methods (such as Janka) can only apply to testing materials of relatively uniform hardness
throughout - be they natural or chemically fully impregnated - not thin coated materials (as demonstrated by the previously posted images).
I am primarily interested at the moment in testing materials that may prove to be hard enough for fingerboards (treated or untreated) without the need
for any maintained coatings so the macro indentation method should be good enough for any 'before' and 'after' comparisons.
The indentation methods stress the materials under test beyond their elastic limit (plastic yield) in one test loading. The string pressure on a
fingerboard surface may be quite high as there is line contact with the underside of the round section string so that a relatively low force on a
string from the fingers may generate quite a high localised pressure on the fingerboard surface (pressure = force per unit area). This repeated
application of high pressure over time may cause softer materials to permanently yield whereas harder materials might offer sufficient resistance to
prevent yielding.
When a relatively soft coating (e.g. varnish) is applied over a hard fingerboard material the surface coating, if thick enough, will likely
permanently yield under string pressure over time and so require regular repair - but surely nothing is gained in coating a fingerboard if the
uncoated fingerboard material is hard enough to resist yielding in the first place?
What might be interesting to try would be a thin coating of 'hard' rubber over a soft fingerboard material that would deform elastically under string
pressure (and then recover) without causing the underlying fingerboard material to yield.
I have had a close look, under magnification and incident light, at the fingerboard of my old Egyptian oud for signs of string indentation marks and
could only find two places with the very faint 'tell tale' marks left by wound strings and one deeper gouge close to the nut at the first position,
sixth course (left unrepaired so presumably never a problem requiring repair or correction). The age of the oud is unknown but is probably close to a
century old. The instrument shows all the signs of hard wear and abuse so has certainly been well used in its time. The fingerboard is mahogany -
quite soft for a fingerboard material and has not been coated but quite uniformly darkened by finger staining. It must be remembered that this oud has
never been strung with modern nylon strings but instead with softer gut trebles and copper wound on silk basses at relatively lower string tensions
than are possible with modern nylon.
This begs a question. What is the string wear (if any) observed on the oldest surviving ouds from the late 19th/early 20th C - particularly those with
fancy decoratively inlaid fingerboards?
fernandraynaud - 1-16-2013 at 01:23 PM
The fingerboard field is heating up. I was looking at a Chinese guitar that until recently was made with a rosewood fingerboard. It now looks like
stained nondescript wood. We're approaching the day when rosewood, let alone ebony, is unheard of on instruments.
Fender is using "ebonol". Gibson, after two federal raids over hardwoods, is moving squarely into plastic woods under fancy names on even their best
guitars.
John, in an effort to instill reason and discipline, please don't reason away realities. You keep implying fingerboard wear is not a problem. Most oud
owners have, or have seen, ouds with grooved fingerboards, especially at Rast on the 4th course. And it's far more troublesome than the largely
cosmetic damage on a guitar. It only takes a slight grooving to buzz. Older ouds may have had the fingerboards repeatedly lightly re-leveled. It may
not even show.
Most of us have no control over the exact materials used. Testing and finding an optimal retro-treating for softer fingerboards would be a good deed.
You're in a ideal position to help.
It could be that the "hard rubber" model you describe is exactly how some coatings work. Or the reverse. What is the effect of the epoxies and thick
superglue layer bass players use? What are cello people doing? jdowning - 1-16-2013 at 03:34 PM
So lets hear about the 'realities' of fingerboard wear from others apart from yourself fernandraynaud as you surely do not speak with authority for
the the majority of oud players or luthiers.
I am not trying to 'reason away' or 'imply' anything - just seeking unbiased information in order to try to figure out if there really is a problem
and - if there is - what the solution might be.
So please give us all a break - kindly practice what you preach about "instilling reason and discipline" into these discussions.fernandraynaud - 1-16-2013 at 04:20 PM
No, no, I'm not for reason and discipline. F'get 'bout it.
. google translated this name to "Betel nut". i've also seen fingerboards and pegs made of this Betel nut (foofel,
whatever). it's dark brown anyway. 