Mike's Oud Forums - Powered by XMB

Oud , Banjo Question

Adel Salameh - 6-30-2015 at 03:49 AM

Dear Friends,
for a very long time I have wanted to post this on the forums...a question about the Arab Oud... many of you know that we have produced great makers in many countries including Syria , Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine...

many of my friends and the people who know me , they know that I like the traditional Arab Oud, and I still believe that the Arab Oud is something unique and special ..

If we look at the Turkish , Armenian and Greek oud we see that the instrument is preserved and quite protected , which means their Oud has not changed and they carry on producing the same Model without any changes...

The Oud in the Arab world has changed, in fact it has been replaced by another instrument which has nothing to do with the Oud , neither in sound nor in the look ...

we have an instrument that produces banjo: Mandolin sound, with floating bridge with F string ...

Its may be good to have another instrument , as long as we give it a name and say this instrument is part of the oud family and say that this player plays this instrument ...

I believe that we should protect the Arab oud and encourage makers to carry on producing this instrument and their is no harm in having another extra instrument if it does not delete the authentic Arab oud.

best wishes,
Adel

http://www.adelsalameh.com

Jody Stecher - 6-30-2015 at 03:59 PM

Dear Adel,

I agree with you about floating bridge oud not being at all the same as the fixed bridge Arabic oud. My preference is very much for the fixed bridge oud. That is the oud I dream about, the oud that captures my imagination, the oud with magic and charm, and this is for both sound and appearance.

As a player of mandolin and banjo since the age of 12 (many years ago) I don't agree that the floating bridge oud has a sound resembling any kind of banjo or mandolin.

best wishes
Jody

Adel Salameh - 6-30-2015 at 11:09 PM

Dear Jody,
I like your answer ( Banjo and mandolin sound better)

for me its NOT an Oud, I do say this to makers , players and to my students...
will you consider this instrument as part of the Mandolin family ? if you look at the soundboard and the way it bends behind the bridge, the floating bridge.. the way the strings are fixed to the bowl???
I ask this as you are a mandolin player? and may be you know about the structure and the making of Mandolin.
Best wishes,
Adel
http://www.adelsalameh.com/oudcamp.php

Jody Stecher - 7-1-2015 at 07:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Adel Salameh

Dear Jody,
I like your answer ( Banjo and mandolin sound better)

for me its NOT an Oud, I do say this to makers , players and to my students...
will you consider this instrument as part of the Mandolin family ? if you look at the soundboard and the way it bends behind the bridge, the floating bridge.. the way the strings are fixed to the bowl???
I ask this as you are a mandolin player? and may be you know about the structure and the making of Mandolin.
Best wishes,
Adel
http://www.adelsalameh.com/oudcamp.php

I edited my post, removing the part about mandolin and banjo sounding better so that I would not offend sincere people who love their floating bridge ouds. They are entitled to their opinions, but since you obviously saw my original post and have responded to it I suddenly realized I also may have an opinion and yes it is true that I do find that mandolins and banjos that are well set up and well played sound better to me than floating bridge ouds.

I am away from home at the moment and don't have access to a book I have about early mandolin but if I remember right, the earliest mandolins had a flat soundboard and floating bridge and it was soon discovered that having 2 planes to the soundboard was a better idea. However since those days the mandolin has taken many forms. Some of the best sounding mandolins do not have 2 planes but have a curve instead. Since the 1920s bowl back mandolins are less common than mandolins with flat backs, and especially than mandolins whose backs do have a small curve or arch, but this is carved rather than being made of ribs. The original almond shape, which gave rise to the name "mandol" and "mandola" and "mandolin", is no longer universal. Now there are many shapes, each with a characteristic sound. All of these are considered to be real mandolins and not another instrument. The tuning of G D A E, low to high, has been standard for a long time on all mandolins. Mandola is larger and tuned lower and is considered to be part of the mandolin family but it is not a type of mandolin.

Some of the bowl back players feel that the other forms of mandolin are not really mandolins. The majority feel that all forms of mandolin are real mandolins but that each is suited for certain kinds of music. It's the same with guitar and banjo. It's understood that using the best tool for the job will produce the best result but there is very little objection to all varieties being called by the same name (mandolin or banjo or guitar).

I am only a player, not a historian, but my impression, unverified by experts, but also not disputed, is that while the European lute is descended from the Arabic oud/aoud , the mandolin may be descended from the Arabic kwitra via a now obsolete European instrument called quintern. kwitra and kwintern may also be cognate words. The kwitra, now common in North Africa, especially Algeria, appears to have evolved in Arabic Spain a long time ago.

journeyman - 7-5-2015 at 09:53 PM

OK, I'll bite....I would enjoy listening to Munir Bashir more if he had played a standard Arabic oud.

Adel Salameh - 7-6-2015 at 12:55 AM

Thank you Jody for the great information regarding the Mandolin...
I must say that I have no intention of upsetting anybody , nor making anybody feel bad regarding my comments...
having said that , things must be clear , I love Munir Bashir as a player, a master in what he was doing , the way he interpreted traditional music...
the fact that he developed this instrument with the Iraqi Usta Mohammad Fadl Awad in the early 1950's and brought it to life.... this instrument suited Munir Bashir style of playing and was accepted and spread all over the Arab world does not mean that this instrument is the Arab Oud... players followed the master in trying to play like him and to produce the same sound ...

we all know what is the Arab oud, and this is instrument is not an oud, then it should be given a name, we have many string instruments like Buzuq, Mandolin, Mandola, Quithra... etc and this instrument will be added to the list of string instruments which we all ready have...

I wish you all the best,
Adel

http://www.adelsalameh.com/oudcamp.php

spyblaster - 7-6-2015 at 02:49 AM

This is the strangest post I have ever seen on Mikeouds.
Seriously, do floating bridge ouds look like mandolins to you? Both kinds have the same tuning, string length, fingering, string material, picking and number of strings. just because the bridge is changed or a pair of strings is added doesnt mean its a mandolin.
Take guitar family for example, there are classical guitars, Flamenco guitars, acoustic guitars, electric guitars, arctop guitars and a lot more. 6 strings, 7 strings, 12 strings. but they are all guitars.

I myself prefer my 11 strings fixed bridge oud to all other kinds (its the most famous kind here in Iran) but floating bridge oud as a mandolin? NOWAY!

journeyman - 7-6-2015 at 05:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster

This is the strangest post I have ever seen on Mikeouds.
Seriously, do floating bridge ouds look like mandolins to you? Both kinds have the same tuning, string length, fingering, string material, picking and number of strings. just because the bridge is changed or a pair of strings is added doesnt mean its a mandolin.
Take guitar family for example, there are classical guitars, Flamenco guitars, acoustic guitars, electric guitars, arctop guitars and a lot more. 6 strings, 7 strings, 12 strings. but they are all guitars.

I myself prefer my 11 strings fixed bridge oud to all other kinds (its the most famous kind here in Iran) but floating bridge oud as a mandolin? NOWAY!

If I am not mistaken, Adel was simply referring to the sound of the floating bridge oud as being closer to the mandolin or banjo; you know, the "twangyness" of it. Maybe the sound of the cumbus as a comparison would have been closer to home. I do agree that the FB oud is part of the oud family; the guitar analogy is a good one. The floating bridge archtop guitar sounds very different than a flat top with steel strings or a nylon string classical guitar. Then there is the 12 string guitar; they are all guitars. However, Adel's point that there should be a distinction made between the standard fixed bridge Arabic oud and the Iraqi FB oud is valid in my opinion. Is it different enough to be named as a different instrument? Probably a difficult argument to make.

However, here is something that might add to the discussion on some level. Back in the 1940s or 50s (not sure of the date) Brazil was looking for national symbols. The government chose the violão, which is a nylon string guitar or classical guitar. The Brazilians refer to this instrument as a violão, not as a guitar. They have a 10 string (double metal courses) and they call it a viola caipira. There is also a 7 string guitar called a violão sete cordas and referred to as such. If you refer to an instrument as a guitar in Brazil (viola) they will assume that you are referring to a steel string flattop, an archtop or electric guitar. They refer to the nylon string or classical guitar as a violão. I used to work with a Brazilian singer and she always referred to my nylon string guitar as a violão and my electric as a guitar. So, there is a precedent there for Adel's point that perhaps there should be more of a distinction made between the Arabic oud and its cousin, the floating bridge twangy thing originating in Iraq.

spyblaster - 7-6-2015 at 11:31 AM

I'm no expert in these stuff but I think this is the structure which categorizes the instrument types, not the sound. Take Iranian, Turkish and Egyptian ouds for example, do they sound similar to u? But they all have almost the same structures. Even changing the string material (Nylon, PVF, Nylgut, etc) can completely change the sound.

Jason - 7-6-2015 at 02:59 PM

If you want to make a distinction between the two go for it, no one is stopping you. As others have pointed out an Iraqi oud is simply a different type of the same instrument. Same thing as a gypsy guitar, classical guitar, steel string guitar, etc. They're all guitars but serve different purposes, produce different sounds, and are used for different genres (with a fair bit of overlap just like with ouds).

It starts to get goofy when you begin to insinuate one or another type is the "real" instrument and the others are mere imitations of the real thing. Nothing could be further from the truth. All in all I say spend more time practicing and less time worrying about such things.

journeyman - 7-6-2015 at 09:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jason

If you want to make a distinction between the two go for it, no one is stopping you. As others have pointed out an Iraqi oud is simply a different type of the same instrument. Same thing as a gypsy guitar, classical guitar, steel string guitar, etc. They're all guitars but serve different purposes, produce different sounds, and are used for different genres (with a fair bit of overlap just like with ouds).

It starts to get goofy when you begin to insinuate one or another type is the "real" instrument and the others are mere imitations of the real thing. Nothing could be further from the truth. All in all I say spend more time practicing and less time worrying about such things.

From this I understand that you feel that there should not be a distinction made between types of oud as far as what they are called. My point was that in at least one culture, Brazilian, the different types of guitar are given different names which has established a precedent. Therefore I feel that the question of naming the traditional Arabic oud and the floating bridge oud differently is a legitimate one, worthy of discussion. We don't need to come to a conclusion. I will add that Adel's level of virtuosity and his artistic contributions to music give him the right to pose the question. Lets please try to remain respectful. Perhaps the question could have been presented with a little less piss and vinegar,

nevertheless, it could be an interesting topic if we don't simply dismiss it as unworthy.

Adel Salameh - 7-7-2015 at 03:57 AM

Roy I must say that you understand me very well...this instrument deserves to have a name , we have Quithra,buzuq , mandolin , mandola , oud ..etc They are recognized instrument in the Arab world ...this one should be on the list as an independent instrument and not as an oud .... I remember seeing a Neapolitan mandolin in the past , their was a bend on the soundboard behind the bridge , this is the reason I have asked if Mohammad Fadl was influenced by the mandolin when he made this model ... Best wishes , Adel

journeyman - 7-7-2015 at 05:02 AM

One other example to support the idea that the FB oud could be named differently is the modern Iranian oud called a barbat. It is easy to simply call it "small oud" but it does have a different name.

majnuunNavid - 7-7-2015 at 06:57 AM

Interesting post. I agree, with all comments to some degree.

I am a fan of both types, floating bridge and fixed bridge. They serve different purposes.

What really is an Oud, 5 strings? 6 six strings? Bass C string? no bass string, or an extra high string? The Oud like all instruments is evolving in time, some try to preserve, others innovate. If some did not innovate, we would not have the amazing CLASSIC Syrian Oud we have now.

But yes, in some respects the floating bridge oud is a different instrument.

But even when you compare fixed bridge Ouds, not all are the same. They all have their unique character, and this is what is amazing about the Oud that it's never the same.

What I've discovered for my own taste is that floating bridge high ff Oud should be more widely used for Persian music. The range and concept is more akin to the other Persian instruments. It is different.

That being said, long live the Arab Oud, that is the Oud I fell in love with and that is the sound that moves me forward.

Alfaraby - 7-7-2015 at 02:25 PM

Excuse me gentlemen, but I have to weary you a bit with some history:

The first oud is believed to be invented in Iraq 4.5 millenniums ago, back in the Acadian era (2350-2170 BC). Some supposed that the oud was Persian or Arabic or even Turkish, but the ancient Sumerian fretted oud of the third millennium BC has been seen in the early archaeological findings. This was very long before the Persians or the Arabs were first reported to step the stage of history.

The oud moved from old Iraq to the neighboring countries. It reached Egypt and was used for the first time in the era of the New Kingdom (1580-1090 BC), while in Persia it has been proven that its first appearance followed the fall of Babylon in 1530 BC. Later on, the oud moved to Turkey (1675-1650 BC) and to Syria (15th century BC), to Palestine, Arab Peninsula and Greece (fourth century BC).

During the first centuries of the oud history, the shape of the sound box varied from rounded small to rectangular with semi-curved corners, while its neck ranged from long to short and had three pegs. Ancient engraved findings showed an instrument which looked more like a bouzouki than to the well known oud. It preserved this small pear-like shape for millenniums to come, until it started to look like what we all now know as "the oud".

The name of the oud had also known some changes throughout the Arabian history. It was first called "oud" in the 6th century A.D when Al Nadr Ibn Al Hareth first brought the oud to Mecca. Later, it was called barbat after the Persian naming, then after a fish called shabbout (by Mansour Zalzal ** - 791), then mazhar and more.

In short, oud is actually the name of the oud family, just as the violin family, while each specific instrument has its own name, without prejudice of the family name. The name given to an instrument is not the issue raised by Adel. It's the idea behind trying to make the floating bridge modern Iraqi oud prevail and subside the well known Syrian/Egyptian oud we all know, the oud of Sunbati, Qasabji, Abdol Wahhab, Farid, Wadee'a Alsafi and many others.

Bashir's oud, first devised in 1950's, was the result and not the cause behind this innovation. Bashir brothers wanted a high tuned oud so they asked their luthier Mohammad Fadel to make a strong oud which's capable of maintaining the high tuning without endangering the soundboard. This oud was spread worldwide since the early 1970's by Monir Bashir and become the most desired pattern of the oud family. It is an Iraqi oud-family member indeed, but it sure is not the same Syrian/Egyptian cousin oud family member we all cherish.

This should not mean by any means it's not as good as The Oud, but it should have been called Owide for instance, in order to differentiate it from the oud, just like quitra was minimized from qithara or guitar, and just like violin name was minimized from viola. Was the violin still called viola, or vise versa, it would have caused confusion just like the case here.

The oud would say: They are all my sons

Last, to whom who has advised Adel to practice: Excuse me gentleman, but this should not have been written to a well accomplished oud player called Adel Salameh.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

abc123xyz - 7-7-2015 at 07:36 PM

Not to weigh in on whether the instrument with the floating bridge should have its own name or not, because I don't care, but originally the word oud seems to have been used in Arabic generically to apply to any short-necked lute.

An excerpt from the New Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments:

1. The term ‘ŪD.
Literally, ‘ūd means ‘twig’, ‘flexible rod’ or ‘aromatic stick’, and by inference ‘piece of wood’. In Ibn Khaldūn (14th century), ‘ūd denoted the plectrum of the lute called barbaṭ. The etymology of the word has occasioned numerous commentaries, among them Farmer’s thesis that the Arabs adopted the term to differentiate the instrument, with its wooden soundtable, from the similar Persian barbaṭ, whose belly is covered with skin. But this can no longer be defended. The choice of the term ‘ūd depends on a discursive form of Arab thought which required some other word to define the barbaṭ before the ‘ūd (the same applies to all the instruments of the emergent Islamic world): in this system of ideas, one term refers back to another or is glossed by yet another, leading to a multiplicity of terms. As the ṣanj is described as a wanj, the būq as a qarn, the duff as a ṭār, the ‘ūd becomes a synonym of the barbaṭ. The skin–wood difference was not taken into account. This play of reference is clearly stated by the 10th-century Andalusian writer, Ibn ‘Abd al-Rabbīhi: ‘the ‘ūd is the barbaṭ’. Other writers, such as Ibn Sīnā and Ibn Khaldūn, included the ‘ūd under the heading of ‘barbaṭ’ when speaking of its characteristics. In the 10th century commentaries on pre-Islamic poetry by al-Anbārī (d 916) give the ‘ūd two semantic meanings: barbat and MIZHAR (Lyall: The Mufaḍḍaliyāt, Oxford, 1921, p.812); mizhar was to become a poetic substitute for the ‘ūd. Earlier, it could equally denote the lyre, suggesting a process of transference from lyre to lute, the lute gradually acquiring the attributes of previous string instruments and becoming a sublimation of them. This transference is noticeable in the earliest Arabic versions of the Bible, where kinnor (lyre) is translated as ‘ūd (lute).

– end quote –

David

journeyman - 7-7-2015 at 08:04 PM

You make some very astute points Jamil.

[1] "The first oud is believed to be invented in Iraq 4.5 millenniums ago, back in the Acadian era (2350-2170 BC)."

It is very difficult to say for sure that the oud originated that far back. There were many instruments that evolved from these early plucked instruments, not only the oud. Not to be contrary, just saying that it is a possibility, not a certainty. I believe that you illustrate this point here:
"Ancient engraved findings showed an instrument which looked more like a bouzouki than to the well known oud."

[2] ""The name given to an instrument is not the issue raised by Adel. It's the idea behind trying to make the floating bridge modern Iraqi oud prevail and subside the well known Syrian/Egyptian oud we all know, the oud of Sunbati, Qasabji, Abdol Wahhab, Farid, Wadee'a Alsafi and many others."

I believe that you are right. Would you agree Adel?

[3] "This should not mean by any means it's not as good as The Oud, but it should have been called Owide for instance, in order to differentiate it from the oud, just like quitra was minimized from qithara or guitar, and just like violin name was minimized from viola. Was the violin still called viola, or vise versa, it would have caused confusion just like the case here."

Violin, cello, viola....all came from the viola (Italian) family. Actually the guitar was also once part of the viola family or vihuela family in Spain where the modern guitar evolved: viola da mana (plucked with the fingers) viola de arco (played with a bow) viola de penola (a metal stringed instrument played with a plectrum) viola da gamba ( fretted but played with a bow)

[4] "Last, to whom who has advised Adel to practice: Excuse me gentleman, but this should not have been written to a well accomplished oud player called Adel Salameh."

I agree 100%.

journeyman - 7-8-2015 at 06:58 AM

The meeting is called to order. On the point of naming the floating bridge oud differently than the traditional Arabic oud, it being the case that we are all in agreement (

) I propose that from henceforth the floating bridge oud shall be named the, "Bashir Oud." For those individuals holding an unfavorable opinion of this instrument, they may if they so choose refer to said instrument as the, Basher Oud." All in favor say yea. Enforcement of the new naming policy can be in the form of a fine with an increasing scale based on 1st, 2nd and 3rd offenses, paid to mikeouds.com. 4th and subsequent offenses will result in offender being strapped to a chair and forced to listen to Munir Bashir recordings at loud volumes. All in favor say yea.

Brian Prunka - 7-8-2015 at 07:52 AM

That made me laugh.

jdowning - 7-9-2015 at 12:07 PM

Apparently the original 'Bashir' floating bridge oud had a conventional flat sound board that was later modified (because of tuning stability problems?) to a bent configuration that provided additional downward force on the bridge as well as allowing use of higher string tensions. The inspiration for this modification seems to have come from the wire strung 19th C Neapolitan style mandolin that has a similar sound board configuration. The same arrangement was used in Southern Italy for the wire strung strummed guitar 'chitarra battente' - flat soundboard baroque guitars sometimes being modified (vandalised) for the purpose.

As far as I know this bent sound board design was an invention of the Southern Italian luthiers? Is there any evidence that this type of sound board is found on other kinds of traditional Middle Eastern (or even European) instruments?

Jason - 7-10-2015 at 06:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by journeyman

From this I understand that you feel that there should not be a distinction made between types of oud as far as what they are called.

But we already do make a distinction between types of ouds. "Floating bridge oud" and "Bashir oud" are pretty well accepted terms most people understand exactly what they mean. I just thought it was a little silly if people were going to start posturing around that one type of oud is "the real deal" and everything else is a silly imitation that should be dismissed.

Jody Stecher - 7-10-2015 at 07:55 PM

The situation seems to be that there is a growing worldwide opinion that the floating bridge oud with its high tuning is the Real Oud and that the fixed bridge oud is an anomaly. That is the context for the question about whether it might be better to have 2 different names.

Quote: Originally posted by Jason

Quote: Originally posted by journeyman

From this I understand that you feel that there should not be a distinction made between types of oud as far as what they are called.

majnuunNavid - 7-10-2015 at 08:11 PM

Can we get a tally of which well-known Oud teachers are teaching with the high ff string? I would really like to know which "schools of Oud" are teaching it. I am to believe that Naseer Shamma is spreading this all over Egypt right now correct? Said Chraibi and Charbel Rouhana use it. Who else?

journeyman - 7-11-2015 at 04:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid

Can we get a tally of which well-known Oud teachers are teaching with the high ff string? I would really like to know which "schools of Oud" are teaching it. I am to believe that Naseer Shamma is spreading this all over Egypt right now correct? Said Chraibi and Charbel Rouhana use it. Who else?

My teacher uses a series of books from a formal academy in Damascus that use the F-f tuning. I don't think the issue is so much the tuning; Anouar Brahem for example uses F-f and still gets that beautiful dark sound. The issue is more about the tonal qualities of the instrument.

Jody Stecher - 7-11-2015 at 04:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid

Khalid Mohammed Ali plays a floating bridge oud.

Not all high strung ouds are floating bridge models.

Naseer Shamma is teaching oud in Cairo. People from outside of Egypt are coming there to learn so in that sense those of his students who play a floating bridge model and return home do spread it "all over" but it's hard for me to imagine any kind of oud being played all over Egypt. Few in the countryside could afford an oud, even if they wanted one. Where would one get strings in the interior?

majnuunNavid - 7-11-2015 at 07:42 AM

Conversely, you can string a floating bridge C To C as well.Has anyone tried that?

Jason - 7-11-2015 at 11:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid

Conversely, you can string a floating bridge C To C as well.Has anyone tried that?

Yep I string my Ghadban C-C, it sounds great.

suz_i_dil - 7-12-2015 at 03:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by journeyman

OK, I'll bite....I would enjoy listening to Munir Bashir more if he had played a standard Arabic oud.

I don't know if we can call it standard but here you go. Munir Bashir on a fix bridge oud.
Nice exemple to realize the importance of the right hand in the sound characteristic production

https://youtu.be/69hjuVv5dzs

Regards

suz_i_dil - 7-12-2015 at 08:10 AM

And what happens when Munir Bashir breaks his oud and take a said poor oud hanging on the studio wall ?
This:

https://youtu.be/Fqon4BB2qnI

phil - 7-12-2015 at 01:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid

My oud teacher Ghassan A uses both fixed and floating-bridge oud but both almost always tuned Ff. I have both type ouds but I love the sound of my Amro Mostafa floating-bridge high Ff and to my ears I prefer that over my glued bridge ouds.

Beit al oud Cairo has certainly added to the proliferation of bashir or floating bridge ouds in Ff but also in the gulf at beit al oud Dubai.

Adel Salameh - 7-13-2015 at 03:25 AM

Apparently the original 'Bashir' floating bridge oud had a conventional flat sound board that was later modified (because of tuning stability problems?) to a bent configuration that provided additional downward force on the bridge as well as allowing use of higher string tensions. The inspiration for this modification seems to have come from the wire strung 19th C Neapolitan style mandolin that has a similar sound board configuration. The same arrangement was used in Southern Italy for the wire strung strummed guitar 'chitarra battente' - flat soundboard baroque guitars sometimes being modified (vandalised) for the purpose.
very interesting point Jdowning, I am not aware of any other Arab string instrument with the bending soundboard even the Nashat Kar does not have this feature ...I some how feel that the bashir style floating bridge instrument has been influenced by the Neapolitan mandolin...of course with influence of the traditional Arab Oud...I have no evidence of this....it will be interesting to see the barring system of this model...
what i saw in this thread is how much people are attached and Cherish their instruments .. the love for their instrument is evident ... I must say that I respect that very much ....

The Bashir style Oud: floating bridge, Sahib , Oud Iraqi and many other names given to this instrument is very confusing to me especially that we are producing this kind of instrument in other Arab countries apart from Iraq with different characteristic which is not the Bashir design, i.e Floating bridge instrument with Egyptian style ...which means using the same bracing system as used in the Traditional Egyptian Oud... what I don't understand is if the Egyptian player is searching and looking for the traditional sound why don't he/she go for the real Egyptian traditional Oud...this is the same in Lebanon, Syria and many other countries... so we ended up having many different floating bridge type instrument in different countries ...
I must agree with you Roy it's about the sound , the bashir style produces the twangynes sound, which I am not in love with but I know some players love this sound... we love what we love, and players who love this floating bridge instrument have all the right to love even though that I am not a great fan of this instrument...

People who talked about Anouar Brahem, I love Anouar as a close friend of mine and a great player, yes he plays traditional Oud and uses F string....however his playing is very elegant and beautiful, If you want to use the F string it's not a big deal , of course you can use it... however you must make the instrument sound like an oud , this example we have seen it with great players like Qasabji, Sunbaty and the great Lebanese master Farid Ghosn... farid Ghosn in my opinion has produced and managed to got out the best from the F string .... and he has opened up the instrument ... he did not use the F string as a short cut because he could not go up the fingerboard....
I prefer the C tuning as I consider the bass C is earth so you can fly but you must come back to Earth... I have used F string in the past but abandon the idea as I could not find a very well balanced instrument .. I must say that I was happy to give up the F string and keep the bass C string which I love

Ustas Khalid Mohammad Ali is my favorite Iraqi Oud player and composer, Ustaz Khalid has used different instruments including floating bridge, Turkish Oud, Iraqi traditional oud, He has also used both the F string on his oud, and the C string, in his last recordings which I love he used 5 string oud no F and no C only 5 strings ... I recommend it to people to listen to this master playing and hear the beautiful playing and what you can got out of a 5 string oud...

thank you very much for this rich discussion and I have learnt a lot from your participation ... I must go and Finnish my tour which I have started last week in Germany....
I leave you with the great Egyptian master Ustaz Riyad Al Sunbaty with the Oud of Usta Mohammad Fadl Awad..both lovely oud and great playing by the Master ..

http://youtu.be/expKbjHsff0

Best wishes;
Adel

http://www.adelsalameh.com/oudcamp.php

suz_i_dil - 7-13-2015 at 05:17 AM

Rich discussion indeed.
I will listen also to Farid Ghosn I know so few
best wishes Adel !

majnuunNavid - 7-13-2015 at 01:10 PM

Thanks for sharing your knowledge Adel and everybody.

I agree with you Adel, I like the Bass C too. 5 course ouds/barbat G A D g c is the default pattern for Persian players. Though I don't think anyone can escape the gravity of the bass C string anymore.

This is possibly another topic, but I'm asking in relation to tonal colour that has been mentioned earlier, if I may... the modern Turkish tuning C#F#B E a d??

I tuned my fixed bridge Arabic Oud this way (in fourths equivalent) C#F#B E a d one step down = B E A D g c. Although this makes sense in some ways from a tuning perspective, in that it's easy to tune an instrument in fourths by ear. But the overtones were horrible for my Oud. Playing certain keys on the high C string just brought out some unwanted noise.

From my experience, G A D g c, D G A D g c, and C G A D g c is the most stable tuning for the open strings. It's the most pleasing, even though I prefer C F A D g c for ease of hitting F and F#.

Can anyone shed any light on this Turkish Tuning?

suz_i_dil - 7-13-2015 at 01:29 PM

Hello
a Turkish tuning you will hear a lot is
d a e B F# B
this is the one you hear with those amazing deep playing in bass strings. Necati Celik use it a lot for exemple.
then many use also
d a e B A E
simply a one tone higher than the usual c g d A G D Arabic tuning.
As far as I know turkish players use both with some preference depending on their tonality. They transpose pieces oftenly and give name to the tune they choose. I don't master this at all, but they will name it as " bolahenk " or " mustahzen " tuning for exemple. Check the name of neys and their tune to get more precise informations about.
then how the oud would react is another matter, from one oud to another