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Türünz Arabic Oud Strings

DavidJE - 1-25-2016 at 05:34 AM

I have both Turkish and Arabic tuned ouds from Faruk Türünz. I bought the Turkish tuned first, loved it, and wanted to have one for Arabic tuning too. When I bought the Arabic tuned oud I liked it even more than the Turkish tuned, although I like lower pitches more in general and it could have been nothing more than chance, as I go back in forth liking different ouds and sounds more and less. Anyway, after I changed the strings on the Arabic tuned oud, I never liked it again nearly as much as the Turkish tuned oud.

The strings that Faruk put on the oud were perfect. I believe they were Turkish Kürschner, but I have no idea what set they were, and I haven't been able to get that information from Faruk or anyone at his shop. I've tried lots of different string manufacturers and sets, and I'm never perfectly happy with any of them. With my Turkish tuned oud though, really every set I have tried have sounded great (standard D'addario are my current favorites).

Today I think I may have finally figured out the issue. The string tension on my Turkish tuned oud feels substantially higher. I think the lower tension strings on the Arabic oud are causing the issues that I don't like...buzzing caused by the strings hitting each other, a scratchier sound from the pick due to the pick being in contact with the strings longer, etc.. Some of the sets I tried on my Arabic oud were Turkish sets tuned a whole tone down, so that explains the lower tension with those sets. Some sets were for Arabic ouds, but I think they were just lower tension. And I've had custom Pyramid Lute sets and Labella Lute sets put together. Right now I have a custom Pyramid Lute set, but when I compare it to the standard D'addario strings on my Turkish tuned oud, the tension feels substantially lower on the Arabic/Pyramid Lute set. So I think what I need to do is try a higher tension set on the Arabic tuned oud.

I've also thought of trying the D'addario Turkish set on my Arabic oud, with Turkish tuning...but on Brian's site he says not to do this ( http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=... ) as the tension could be too high. Does anyone know if this would be the case for a Türünz oud, where the string length is the same as on standard Turkish tuned ouds (58.5cm)?

I use D, G, A, D, g, c tuning on my Arabic oud, and the equivalent E, A, B, E, a, d on my Turkish tuned oud. The Pyramid Lute strings I've used on my Arabic oud are:

D (1035)
G (1021)
A (1017)
d (1010)
g (PVF .63)
c (PVF .54)

Does anyone have any idea what the tension on those would be compared to the D'addario with E, A, B, E, a, d tuning? And, how can I get the same tension as on the D'addario set with Pyramid Lute, but on my Arabic tuned oud?

Thanks!

EDIT: I think one issue with Türünz tuned Arabic ouds and Arabic oud strings is that the strings are meant for 60cm string lengths and Türünz Arabic ouds have a 58.5cm string length...so they end up even lower tension.

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2016 at 08:03 AM

The strings you have on there would be far too tense if tuned up a step, even a half step would be far more tension than I would consider (though it might not damage the oud). Except the g, they are all in the approximately 3.5-3.7Kg range. As I recall, I originally suggested a heavier g, but it wouldn't fit in the tiny holes that Turunz had in the bridge.

That said, with a 58.5cm scale, there is no reason why you can't use Turkish sets tuned Turkish.
But be aware that some Turkish sets are EABead and others are C#F#Bead. Tuning C#F# up to EA is a lot of extra tension in itself. Arabic sets, unless they are custom, are geared toward 61cm, as the typical range is 60-62cm.

D'addario uses tighter windings on their string compared to Pyramid, Kurschner or LaBella, this makes the string inherently stiffer and makes the tension feel higher than it is. Perhaps this is something you like.

I could figure out the comparable D'addario tension in Arabic tuning for you, but you will run into the problem of not fitting the treble strings in the bridge holes.

DavidJE - 1-25-2016 at 08:15 AM

Thanks Brian! If you could figure out the D'addario tension in Arabic tuning for me, I would greatly appreciate it...Pyramid Lute would be fine I think. I may just have to get a luthier here to widen the hole spacing...finally.

I'll try the D'addario set with Turkish tuning and if that fixes the issues. Then I'll have my answer. If it does, then I'll try the Pyramid Lute set with corresponding tension but for Arabic tuning...and I can have the holes drilled both wider and further apart.

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2016 at 10:05 AM

Here are the stated tensions of the D'addario set, in the recommended tuning:

1 d' 2.94 Kg
2 a 2.67 Kg
3 e 4.75 Kg
4 B 4.43 Kg
5 F# 3.82 Kg
6 C# 3.36 Kg

Alternate tunings
5 A 5.4 Kg
6 E 4.74 Kg
6 B 2.71 Kg

To me, this is an OK set in the recommended tuning but I find the tension on the 3rd and 4th course excessive. Using the set in the tuning you said you're using seems way out of balance on the 5th and 6th course. I'd be concerned about the tension causing damage here.
And I actually believe that there is an error in the calculation on the .025w 3rd course, and the tension is actually 5.01Kg not 4.75.

For reference, the tension on your Arabic oud (with the current Pyramid set) is:

c' 3.7 Kg
g 2.9 Kg
d 3.4 Kg
A 3.4 Kg
G 3.5 Kg
D 3.7 Kg

These should be very good tensions, though the g is a little light.
It seems strange to me that the oud doesn't respond well.

DavidJE - 1-25-2016 at 10:14 AM

Thanks Brian!

You said you'd be worried about the tension on the 5th and 6th courses...but on your website you write that the set can be used for E, A, B, E, a, d, right?

"The two lower courses are listed on the package as F# and B. A fourth lower means you can tune these pairs to C# and F# or E and A. For the discerning player, tuning these pairs up to E and A might yield higher tension (but not too high by any means)."

If the tensions are ok on my Turkish tuned oud, would it be possible to put together a Pyramid Lute set with the same tensions for use on my Arabic tuned oud?

Maybe the oud does respond well to most... It's just that to me, it doesn't respond nearly as well as the Turkish tuned oud with the higher tension. I THINK it is the tension, but since I haven't tried a higher tension option, I'm not 100% certain.

Jody Stecher - 1-25-2016 at 10:35 AM

David, here is what has worked well for me on Arabic braced, Arabic tuned ouds with a scale of 58.5:

For the wound strings/ MusiCaravan arabic set

For the trebles/ first try the strings in the MusiCarvan set.

an alternative:

Savarez Alliance KF .052 or .055 for cc

Savarez Alliance KF .062 for gg

Brian sells MusiCaravan strings at a low price.

DavidJE - 1-25-2016 at 11:11 AM

Thanks Jody. That is one set I have yet to try. I've tried the Necati Celik MusiCaravan set on my Turkish tuned oud and like it a lot. But when I switched to EABead tuning I figured the tension would be too high on the thickest string. I do wonder if tension would be ok for DGAdgc tuning with that MusiCaravan set, in terms of not being too high for the 5th and 6th courses.

...just looked...according to Brian's site it should be good for DGAdgc too, since the set is made for 60+cm ouds. I may not like this tension though, since they are designed for larger ouds.

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2016 at 11:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE

Thanks Brian!

You said you'd be worried about the tension on the 5th and 6th courses...but on your website you write that the set can be used for E, A, B, E, a, d, right?

"The two lower courses are listed on the package as F# and B. A fourth lower means you can tune these pairs to C# and F# or E and A. For the discerning player, tuning these pairs up to E and A might yield higher tension (but not too high by any means)."

If the tensions are ok on my Turkish tuned oud, would it be possible to put together a Pyramid Lute set with the same tensions for use on my Arabic tuned oud?

Maybe the oud does respond well to most... It's just that to me, it doesn't respond nearly as well as the Turkish tuned oud with the higher tension. I THINK it is the tension, but since I haven't tried a higher tension option, I'm not 100% certain.

Hmm. Some of the descriptions on my site were written by Jameel before I took over. That's definitely his description and I admit I just took his opinion there and didn't reconsider it. I had felt that it might be kind of high if tuned up to EA but hadn't made it a point to do the calculations. Now that I have, I'm going to revise the description.

Confusingly, D'addario is now publishing tensions here lower than the calculations yield (these calculations are from D'addario's own data). I've sent them an inquiry to try and clear this up.

I'm out of MusiCaravan strings at the moment, but am planning to get more.
I have the KF strings in .52 and .55, but not .62, which seems quite light to me. I have .69, which I've had decent results with.

I could supply Pyramid lute strings heavy enough to mimic the D'addario Turkish tension on a 58.5cm oud in Arabic tuning, but honestly the tension seems really excessive to me.

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2016 at 11:34 AM

The MusiCaravan set is medium tension and if you don't like the tension of the Pyramids you have, I doubt it would be an improvement. It responds nicely on 60+cm ouds but the trebles are a bit light on a shorter oud.

I am inclined toward a more incremental approach. Since the average tension of your current Pyramid set is about 3.4Kg and the average tension of the Turkish tuning D'addario is about 4.1Kg, I'd be inclined to aim more towards 3.7 - 3.8 Kg rather than jumping all the way up to 4.1 Kg.

Since experimenting with Pyramid is a bit expensive, we could try D'addario first.

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2016 at 11:36 AM

I'm surprised that Turunz won't tell you what strings were on it when you got it. I'd expect Kurschner strings. I'll try asking my Kurschner contact if there is a particular set he supplies to Faruk.

DavidJE - 1-25-2016 at 12:57 PM

Thanks again Brian. All good and useful information.

Sorry for the hassle, but I think this all just may be me being overly obsessive. My friend Omar (forum member here) was just at my place playing both of the ouds, and not only does he like the Arabic tuned oud a bit more, but he doesn't find any problem with scratchiness or buzzing. He showed me various videos of people playing, including Simon Shaheen, and there really is the same level of buzzing and pick sounds. For some reason I hear it less on my Turkish tuned oud. Maybe it does have something to do with the tension being higher, or just the sound of that oud in general. And in any case, when someone else plays the ouds the pick sounds and slight buzzing doesn't bother me at all. For some reason when I'm playing I just pay too close attention to that.

I know Mavrothi uses the D'addario strings with the same tuning as I use. He's the one that recommended I try that tuning, and using the D'addario strings. But...I will consider that...that you feel the tension is too high. Thanks again!

Jody Stecher - 1-25-2016 at 12:58 PM

MusiCaravan also has a Turkish set intended for your tuning.

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE

Thanks Jody. That is one set I have yet to try. I've tried the Necati Celik MusiCaravan set on my Turkish tuned oud and like it a lot. But when I switched to EABead tuning I figured the tension would be too high on the thickest string. I do wonder if tension would be ok for DGAdgc tuning with that MusiCaravan set, in terms of not being too high for the 5th and 6th courses.

...just looked...according to Brian's site it should be good for DGAdgc too, since the set is made for 60+cm ouds. I may not like this tension though, since they are designed for larger ouds.

DavidJE - 1-25-2016 at 12:58 PM

Oh...Türünz did tell me they were Kürschner strings...just couldn't get him to tell me which set.

Jody Stecher - 1-25-2016 at 01:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE

Thanks Brian!

I have the KF strings in .52 and .55, but not .62, which seems quite light to me. I have .69, which I've had decent results with.

Savarez is vague or protective about saying what the KF strings are made of. It's something along the lines of PVF where much lighter gauges produce tensions equivalent to thicker gauges in nylon. I've used the .62 on my Turunz oud braced and tuned for Turkish music and the aa is perfect with .62 in that context as well.

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2016 at 01:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

Yes, I've heard different things from different sources but I am fairly certain that " "KF" is actually PVF or some very similar formulation (akin to the varieties of nylon available).

Part of this seems to be confusion about what "PVF" strings actually are. There seems some indication that they are really "PVDF", even possibly the ones called "PVF". So in this case, Savarez would be correct in saying that their strings are "not PVF", since they are PVDF, but confusing in that other strings marketed as "PVF" are in fact also "PVDF".

Here is the patent for PVDF strings, which sources indicate is/was the supplier for Savarez's KF series.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4833027

When I have some time, I will do some comparative calculations using Pyramid's "PVF" data and Savarez'z "KF" data, as well as the actual published densities of PVF and PVDF.

DavidJE - 1-25-2016 at 02:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

MusiCaravan also has a Turkish set intended for your tuning.

Thanks Jody. I'm happy with the D'addario set, but maybe I will give the MusiCaravan a try just since the tension may be safer, to see if I like them as much.

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2016 at 02:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

And I actually believe that there is an error in the calculation on the .025w 3rd course, and the tension is actually 5.01Kg not 4.75.

So I just talked with D'addario and was told that the published density on the .025 is correct—it is actually lighter than the .024. My calculations are still higher than the tensions listed on D'addario's site, but hopefully they can clear that up as well.

DavidJE - 1-25-2016 at 10:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

I am inclined toward a more incremental approach. Since the average tension of your current Pyramid set is about 3.4Kg and the average tension of the Turkish tuning D'addario is about 4.1Kg, I'd be inclined to aim more towards 3.7 - 3.8 Kg rather than jumping all the way up to 4.1 Kg.

Since experimenting with Pyramid is a bit expensive, we could try D'addario first.

Brian, this sounds like a good test. Can you let me know which D'addario strings would be good for 3.7 - 3.8kg (DGAdgc tuning)? I'll order them from you of course. Thanks!

spyblaster - 1-26-2016 at 12:35 AM

As far as I know, Faruk uses Kurschner and Ozten strings on his ouds. let me know if u need those strings.

DavidJE - 1-26-2016 at 12:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster

As far as I know, Faruk uses Kurschner and Ozten strings on his ouds. let me know if u need those strings.

I know that. I just don't know exactly which Kurschner set Faruk is using.

Two more things I've realized... Brian said that D'addario uses a tighter winding. I think this causes a less scratchy sound compared to the Pyramid Lute strings, on the 5th and 6th courses. Additionally, Omar was comparing strings last night after we met and came to the conclusion that the D'addario strings are a bit thinner, which seems to reduce buzzing.

I recall that the Kurschner strings Faruk used were also on the thin side. What I think I need to do is find the Kurschner set that Faruk used on the Arabic oud. My best guess is that they were the high tension Turkish set, since those are made for a 58.5 scale length and will be tuned down.

DavidJE - 1-26-2016 at 04:12 AM

Clarifying a couple of things:

I don't have a problem with the oud itself. I love the oud. The problem has been with my choice of strings, probably exacerbated by my relatively poor picking habits (working on fixing them), and possibly my choice of pick.

If I used higher tension D'addario strings, they would need to be thicker, which would probably cause issues I wouldn't like. So after thinking about it more I do think the best course is to try a higher tension Turkish set like the ones Faruk used originally. For me, it has been difficult to find the ideal strings for Arabic tuning on a 58.5cm oud, with the ideal combination of thickness and tension.

DavidJE - 1-26-2016 at 05:29 AM

I chatted with Zeynel Demirtas from Faruk's shop just now on Facebook. He said they (including he and Yurdal Tokcan) use and recommend the following for the Arabic tuned ouds with c, g, d, A, F, C tuning:

PVF 0,59/ PVF 0,68/ 1012/ 1018/ 1025/ 1240

He also told me that 1025 and 1240 are fine on their ouds even when using G and D. Seems high, but he said he often changes his tuning and it is not a problem.

PaulS - 1-28-2016 at 01:25 AM

After trying a lot of things on my Turunz Turkish Oud tuned Arabic I broke down and bought a set of Kurschner Arabic (401104) in their online catalogue. They are the best thing since sliced bread, so to speak.

DavidJE - 1-28-2016 at 09:46 AM

Thanks Paul...that is interesting, especially since those are made for a 60cm scale length. I don't know if you have noticed this, but the biggest problem I have with my Türünz ouds in terms of strings is the 2nd course ("g" in Arabic tuning). This is the course that tends to buzz on both of my ouds, and also the Türünz oud that a friend of mind had. What we discovered though is that using a thinner string solves the problem.

Chatting with Zeynel yesterday, he told me that they use Özten (old Kürschner) strings on the reduced price ouds and Pyramid Lute strings on the custom single and double soundboard ouds. He gave me the exact string gauges for the Pyramid Lute sets. I'm going to make another post shortly with those, since so many people have written about ideal strings on Türünz ouds.

Despite what Zeynel told me, I think Faruk had old Kürschner/Özten strings on both of my ouds...even though one was a custom single. I think these Özten strings were thinner...not sure what set they were...so they did not buzz badly on the 2nd course.

Experimenting over the last couple of days more than usual, I've found that the Pyramid Lute sets Zeynel recommended sound great (almost identical to what Brian Prunka recommended), as long as I switch out the 2nd course with a thinner string. That eliminates the bad buzzing sound. I was probably wrong about tension being the problem.

Part of this is down to my personal taste, too. I don't like buzzing. And I don't like to hear the pick hitting and scratching on the strings. So I've also found that playing closer to the bridge, in the middle of the pickguard, really helps with this. And, although I used to not like the "Turkish style" rubber picks...they reduce so much of the scratchy sound that you can get on the 5th and 6th courses, that I'm coming to like them more.

Anyway, maybe I will try some other Kürschner sets, but I'm thinking that since Zeynel told me the Pyramid Lute strings sound best...and he is both making and playing the ouds...I'll just stick with them and forget about it.

PaulS - 1-28-2016 at 06:47 PM

No I didn't know that. How do id you determine they were made for 60 cm? The g is often rather lifeless in other strings but vibrant in the Kurschners. Bigger problem for me has been a buzzing in the d string

PaulS - 1-28-2016 at 07:51 PM

The set I have is 401104. I asked for a 58.5 Oud and was told these were the right ones, medium tension, but I don't know how to calculate tension. I would be happy to know more. Just by my ear test these have been the best yet

DavidJE - 1-28-2016 at 11:07 PM

Well, from what I have seen listed on sites that sell the Kürschner strings, the Arabic sets are made for ouds with a 60-62cm scale length, as that's how the vast majority of Arabic ouds are made. I *think* it's only the Turkish made Arabic ouds (some would say these are primarily Turkish ouds anyway) that have the 58.5cm scale length. Although, maybe some Arab makers are making 58.5cm too now.

If you like what you have a lot now though, then there's really no reason to switch.

norumba - 5-17-2019 at 10:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE

I chatted with Zeynel Demirtas from Faruk's shop just now on Facebook. He said they (including he and Yurdal Tokcan) use and recommend the following for the Arabic tuned ouds with c, g, d, A, F, C tuning:

PVF 0,59/ PVF 0,68/ 1012/ 1018/ 1025/ 1240

He also told me that 1025 and 1240 are fine on their ouds even when using G and D. Seems high, but he said he often changes his tuning and it is not a problem.

This is s good to know, thanks.... What would be the right tension /size for a high ff pair for this set, does anyone know?