Mike's Oud Forums

Hello!

Guitarune - 8-17-2021 at 03:26 AM


Hi there!

I suddenly decided to get myself an oud. I'm a musician (guitar and various other stringed instruments) but never tried ouds as they are not readily available in my country.

Got my first one some days ago, but unfortunately it goes straight back. Neither sound nor playability was good enough. Upped the spending amount and have a different one on the way from Sala Muzik right now. Fingers crossed!

But I have forum related question...Has this place been on an un-secure server for long? I'm not all that comfortable hanging around on servers that are not secure :shrug:

Jody Stecher - 8-17-2021 at 05:52 AM

Ever since Web Browsers began to post the Not Secure notice this forum has said Not Secure. Sometimes that means a site is not secure. Sometimes it means that someone at the server end has not updated the notice. I don't know what it means here.

alim - 8-17-2021 at 10:46 AM

It is (rightly) flagged as 'Not Secure' because the site uses http (not https) which is inherently insecure. I tried https but is looks like this site does not support it.

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/post.php?action=reply&fid=14&tid=18778

Cheers,
Ali-

Guitarune - 8-17-2021 at 11:12 AM


Yeah, guess it's ok as long as one is aware, and use a password that only applies here :cool:

I got the oud from Sala Muzik by the way. No luck :( The fretboard changes angle at the neck joint so it is not playable beyond that point... Not sure what to do about that. Ask them for a replacement and that they make sure the neck is straight, or shop from elsewhere? I know a lot about acoustic guitars, but little about ouds and their makers.

coolsciguy - 8-17-2021 at 04:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Guitarune  

Yeah, guess it's ok as long as one is aware, and use a password that only applies here :cool:

I got the oud from Sala Muzik by the way. No luck :( The fretboard changes angle at the neck joint so it is not playable beyond that point... Not sure what to do about that. Ask them for a replacement and that they make sure the neck is straight, or shop from elsewhere? I know a lot about acoustic guitars, but little about ouds and their makers.


Send a link to the oud you bought. Sala has a variety of ouds, some are more reliable than other. Zeryab ouds are more or less a safe bet should you decide to get a replacement.

Guitarune - 8-17-2021 at 05:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by coolsciguy  

Send a link to the oud you bought. Sala has a variety of ouds, some are more reliable than other. Zeryab ouds are more or less a safe bet should you decide to get a replacement.


I got this one: AAOK-310G

The neck itself seems reasonably straight, and the action at the joint is 3+ mm. Just a bit more than I'd like. But the fretboard angles down with the top of the body so the action is 8 mm towards the end of the fretboard.



AAOK-301G_1.jpg - 111kB

Jody Stecher - 8-17-2021 at 06:47 PM

What I think I am seeing in the photo seems impossibly bizarre. Can you post another photo that shows the entire top of the oud? I can't quite work out what I am actually seeing.

coolsciguy - 8-18-2021 at 04:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Guitarune  
Quote: Originally posted by coolsciguy  

Send a link to the oud you bought. Sala has a variety of ouds, some are more reliable than other. Zeryab ouds are more or less a safe bet should you decide to get a replacement.


I got this one: AAOK-310G

The neck itself seems reasonably straight, and the action at the joint is 3+ mm. Just a bit more than I'd like. But the fretboard angles down with the top of the body so the action is 8 mm towards the end of the fretboard.





Other folks can correct me, but not the whole fret board is entirely "playable". The better sounding section of the oud is from the nut to the joint. from the joint onwards sound loses clarity; from joint halfway to the sound hole is still playable. All ouds have high action (7-8 mm) at the bridge, whith action gradually getting shorter moving closer to the nut.

Jody Stecher - 8-18-2021 at 05:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by coolsciguy  

[/ rquote]

Other folks can correct me, but not the whole fret board is entirely "playable". The better sounding section of the oud is from the nut to the joint. from the joint onwards sound loses clarity; from joint halfway to the sound hole is still playable. All ouds have high action (7-8 mm) at the bridge, whith action gradually getting shorter moving closer to the nut.


The strings of a typical plucked string instrument, including a typical oud, produce a thick muted sound as the vibrating length shortens (as the player fingers higher up the fingerboard). As you say, a typical oud sounds clear up until the neck/body joint. I have an excellent oud from the shop of Faruk Turunz which sounds clear on each string right to the high end of the fingerboard. It was designed to do that. But that is an exceptional situation. But there seems to be a bizarre construction problem in this Sala oud. The photo suggests that the fingerboard makes a left turn!! I'm probably misinterpreting the photo. I hope so!

sylvainbd - 8-18-2021 at 06:26 AM

Most of industrial acoustic oud have 2 angles on fingerboard. First one until the fifth. Action at this point must be 3mm max indeed. Then between fifth until octave have bigger angle. Because most part of repertory in oud music is played on the first neck part ... So from my point of view that is not awesome but that is correct.
But indeed an oud with flat fingerboard is very handy to play. Oud maker as professionnel luthier make it like that.

Guitarune - 8-18-2021 at 06:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Quote: Originally posted by coolsciguy  


Other folks can correct me, but not the whole fret board is entirely "playable". The better sounding section of the oud is from the nut to the joint. from the joint onwards sound loses clarity; from joint halfway to the sound hole is still playable. All ouds have high action (7-8 mm) at the bridge, whith action gradually getting shorter moving closer to the nut.


The strings of a typical plucked string instrument, including a typical oud, produce a thick muted sound as the vibrating length shortens (as the player fingers higher up the fingerboard). As you say, a typical oud sounds clear up until the neck/body joint. I have an excellent oud from the shop of Faruk Turunz which sounds clear on each string right to the high end of the fingerboard. It was designed to do that. But that is an exceptional situation. But there seems to be a bizarre construction problem in this Sala oud. The photo suggests that the fingerboard makes a left turn!! I'm probably misinterpreting the photo. I hope so!


Ah, no it's not making a left turn :D It just sinks with the top.

Action at the bridge is 12 mm, which becomes 8 mm when reaching the fretboard. But the action is almost tripling from the neck joint to the end of the fretboard.

If this is acceptable on an oud, I'll also accept that :-)

How is the top of an oud supposed to be? Straight, slightly upward, sinking? On a healthy guitar, slightly upwards bow is normal. On this oud the top sinks quite a bit. That's ok? I just want to make sure that this oud will survive in the future, since as a guitarist I'm a bit scared by the sinking top and fretboard change :shrug:





oud.jpg - 182kB

coolsciguy - 8-18-2021 at 06:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Guitarune  


Ah, no it's not making a left turn :D It just sinks with the top.

Action at the bridge is 12 mm, which becomes 8 mm when reaching the fretboard. But the action is almost tripling from the neck joint to the end of the fretboard.

If this is acceptable on an oud, I'll also accept that :-)

How is the top of an oud supposed to be? Straight, slightly upward, sinking? On a healthy guitar, slightly upwards bow is normal. On this oud the top sinks quite a bit. That's ok? I just want to make sure that this oud will survive in the future, since as a guitarist I'm a bit scared by the sinking top and fretboard change :shrug:



I think what you are saying is that your soundboard sinks around the sound hole/end of fret board which is giving you high action in that area. Can't say if this is by design or a flaw. I owned one beginner Turkish spruce top oud which was like that. My Arabic cedar top oud isn't. There is a lot of variation in bracing the sound board which causes such behavior. Also, depending on your tuning and strings, you may be putting too much pressure on the soundboard.

Jason - 8-18-2021 at 06:54 AM

It's common to see sunken tops on ouds over time but it isn't desirable and shouldn't be expected on a new instrument. It looks like the neck angle is steeper than would be expected on an oud and the bridge is probably higher than usual to compensate.

Brian Prunka - 8-18-2021 at 07:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jason  
It's common to see sunken tops on ouds over time but it isn't desirable and shouldn't be expected on a new instrument. It looks like the neck angle is steeper than would be expected on an oud and the bridge is probably higher than usual to compensate.


100%

Guitarune - 8-18-2021 at 08:25 AM


I'm measuring a bit...

Are ouds, or some ouds, designed with a curved top frame? Meaning that if one laid the oud face down before the top is mounted, it would not be flush with the floor?

Seems like that is the case here. I measured with a string from beside the neck joint (A) and down the length of the top to the bottom (B)(not quite to the bottom obviously, since I have to string beside the bridge).
In the middle (C), the top was about 7 mm down. See attached pic.

When measuring with a string across the top from side to side, the top is 3-4 mm down. So not quite the same....



oud-top.jpg - 26kB

Jason - 8-18-2021 at 11:10 AM

No, oud tops are planed flat before pairing with the bowl. It is common for the top to sink over time but that typically takes several years if it happens and ouds are never built that way from the beginning.

Guitarune - 8-18-2021 at 11:25 AM


Hm...not sure what to do about this. It's such a hassle to export for an exchange, apply for VAT refund etc etc...

I could live with it as is, with my own slight adjustments, but if the top is likely going to give me problems down the line I dunno...

Btw, this one has guitar tuning gears. Easier for a starter like me. But they are put on the wrong way :bounce:

Jason - 8-18-2021 at 12:35 PM

If it is an expensive instrument I might consider going through the hassle of returning it. If this is more of just something to learn on it may still serve it's purpose. Most oud repertoire is played below the neck joint so if playability in that region of the instrument is okay then you should be able to still play most things. You could always contact Sala and see if they'd give you a partial refund or help pay for a repair if you're in a country with luthiers familiar with ouds.

Guitarune - 8-18-2021 at 01:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jason  
If it is an expensive instrument I might consider going through the hassle of returning it. If this is more of just something to learn on it may still serve it's purpose. Most oud repertoire is played below the neck joint so if playability in that region of the instrument is okay then you should be able to still play most things. You could always contact Sala and see if they'd give you a partial refund or help pay for a repair if you're in a country with luthiers familiar with ouds.


With discount it was $630

I can make some slight adjustments myself and it will absolutely be fine on the neck itself. It's about 3+ mm on the high string at the joint. I could get it down to slightly less than 3 I guess, which I think is better.

Unless a sinking top on a new oud is bound to give me trouble further down the road, that is...?

Brian Prunka - 8-18-2021 at 02:47 PM

Some ouds are intentionally built with a bit of relief in the face, or so I've been told. But this is too much, and the relief shouldn't extend to the fingerboard (only between the soundhole and bridge). But as others have noted, almost all of the playing on oud will be between the open strings and the neck joint. Traditionally, the usable register was 2 octaves, from the 5th course to about the neck-body joint on the first string (give or take about a step). All of the traditional repertoire is played within this range.

coolsciguy - 8-18-2021 at 03:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Guitarune  

Hm...not sure what to do about this. It's such a hassle to export for an exchange, apply for VAT refund etc etc...

I could live with it as is, with my own slight adjustments, but if the top is likely going to give me problems down the line I dunno...

Btw, this one has guitar tuning gears. Easier for a starter like me. But they are put on the wrong way :bounce:


I'd suggest you return or substitute it at least. I had a similar experience and regretted not returning it. $700 is too much for a defective oud. Get a Syrian oud next for a safer bet.

Badra - 8-18-2021 at 05:03 PM

Regarding secure server, it used to be a complicated thing back in the days when this site was created. Today, admin just needs to call host and say make it secure, and they flip a switch. I'm personally thrilled this place still exists, a themed website, with a discussion forum, not inundated with ads and friend suggestions.