Mike's Oud Forums

oud restoration project: Rahmine Barda, egyptian oud in Tunis , 1920

suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:23 PM

Hello

i would like to share this lovely finding i made.

I cross this oud at the sale of a french private collector, and among oldies there was this oud, in a rough state of conservation.

Named from Rahmine Barda , labelled as egyptian lutherie in Tunis , 1920

here is some pics of its original state. There was deformation of the soundboard, unglued braces. A varnished had been out on the soundboard after some rough repairs of soundboard cracks. The neck, of a tender wood, has been dig by having been played. The soundboard filetery showed it has been opened from bottom to be repair, bot not the whole soundboard had been take out for this process

here is a few pics of its original state as i got it. Not playable in this state

suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:25 PM



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suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:32 PM

I entrusted the oud for full restoration to Thomas Dauge, a talented luthier of the area of Bordeaux, France.

And asked around for information about.
This way I heard about another one in a private collection (another one than this one). And also about an oud repaired by Rahmine Barda.
No pics for those
Then i had the luck, with the help of social medias, to find his family and had a few elements about.
Rahmine was a talented virtuoso of his era, violin player mainly. The family was from Alexandria before setteling in Tunis. They had an orchestra , making a living from music.

Rahmine Barda was very young when he made this oud in 1920, 19 years old , and unfortunately passed away early, 15 years later. He left a strong memory as being have a great artist inside his family.

Stories has remained, and also a few pictures of him. But unfortunately not a single record has been kept within the family. I know he had represent Tunis during a travel to USA, Chicago.
So i thought about Cairo congress, but they didn't know, nothing about


suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:35 PM

Regarding the specifications, the bowl is 52.2 length, 35 width, 18.5 depth. We couldn't identify the wood of the bowl. ( update: wondering if it is yew wood )
the stringlength is 61.5 but the neck only 19 cm

The oud is extremely light, 840 gr including the strings

5 courses instrument, string spacement at bridge 82 mm. Neck 37 mm at nut, 60 at neck body joint

suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:39 PM

it deserved a lot of work, so Thomas went for dissamebled everything to work it

here is a few pics upon restoration. Patches were necessary for area of fragility because of previous repair or from how the wood worked. Cracked with poor repair has been solved by spruce patche (flipot in french) .
All in all the restoration process has been conservative of its original features.
A patch has been necessary at the peghead / neck joint to joint it finely.
The inlays of the fingerboard could have been kept while the fingerbaord has been leveled.

finishing is shellac on bowl and some layers of shellac on the fingerboard to protect it. With a simple process to maintain it at each change of strings on the fingerboard.
The soundboard has been protected with specific wax, a finishing being used on lutes

suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:41 PM



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suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:45 PM

rough mapping of the bracing andf final state of the soundboard after restoration.

it is not braced on overtones, after an hypothesis i had made there.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=15903

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suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:47 PM

now it is ready.
I let it settle and time for me to familiarize with it before sharing a record with you about

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suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:50 PM



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suz_i_dil - 8-21-2021 at 12:53 PM

May you share your feedbacks about this project ?

Did you ever heard about Rahmine Barda, have any knowledge for a recording from him ?
Maybe someone who has access for records from Cairo congress can check if there is anything mentionning him ?

About the making of this instrument, does it reminds you of a specific egyptian maker of this time ? I wonder from who he learned building ouds. An hypothesis it is a kind of mix between syrian oud and egyptian oud of this era. But nothing sure about

Looking forward to read your thoughts about

Best wishes to all

Kelly - 8-21-2021 at 11:40 PM

Bravo ! Fascinating restoration project carried out with great care and the pictures are great too.Chapeau to you and Thomas 😊 I like the whole design and proportions of this oud.
You mention how light it is in weight. What was the average thickness of the ribs?
Looking forward to hearing it

Jody Stecher - 8-22-2021 at 02:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  


About the making of this instrument, does it reminds you of a specific egyptian maker of this time ?l


I think I see some resemblance to the ouds of the Cairo luthier El Laythi. The photo one often sees of Qassabji shows him with an El Laythi oud. These ouds, which had one sound hole, were comfortable to play because the bowls were less deep and the width across the soundboard was a bit less than normal. The length of the bowl and soundboard was longer than usual, so the capacity of the bowl was not less than that of a wider deeper bowl. I have an oud made by Nazih Ghadban whose proportions are based on the ouds of El Laythi.

51.5cm is the bowl length, 33.5cm is the width , and the depth of the bowl is between 18-18.5cm.

Congratulations on undertaking this restoration project. I hope it sounds as good as it looks.

suz_i_dil - 8-22-2021 at 02:46 AM

thanks for the feedbacks. Yes the Al Laythi hypothesis is very interesting, looks like indeed. Would be interesting to try to compare their tone to see if there is something like between both.
I need a bit time to familiarize with the long bowl, to share a clean record with you. I felt some features on the sound at first, but it only one day it has already changed a bit. Let's take time to hear

Regarding your questions Kelly, Thomas didn't wrote down the thickness of the ribs, but he think to remember 2.3 mm

The soundboard has been measured from 1.5 up to 2.2 mm, 2 mm in average, 1.5 in the area where some cracks had been repaired. Around the bridge it is 2 / 2.2 mm thickness. The wood is not spruce, can be fir wood, stiff transversally for this one. Not to deal with fir wood specifically, one can search for transverse stiffness on a piece of spruce also.

best wishes

Kelly - 8-22-2021 at 11:10 PM

Indeed Jody I had a similar thought about resemblances to Al Lathy.

Thanks for the additional measurements It is a very elegant shape but wondering how much more of a stretch for the left arm it makes? Will be interested in your findings

Looking forward to some of your playing :)

dusepo - 8-23-2021 at 12:42 AM

Great work!

Jody Stecher - 8-23-2021 at 03:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Kelly  
Indeed Jody I had a similar thought about resemblances to Al Lathy.

Thanks for the additional measurements It is a very elegant shape but wondering how much more of a stretch for the left arm it makes? Will be interested in your findings

Looking forward to some of your playing :)


The bowl is longer but the neck is 19 cm. The scale (nut to bridge) is 61.5 cm. I think this oud will be comfortable for both arms.

suz_i_dil - 8-23-2021 at 11:30 AM

Regarding arm stretching, no really i dont feel any difference
it is more a matter of global position of playing, the bowl being rather long. I dont stretch but i dont feel my right hand as free as usual on smaller instruments. Can be also the string spacement on each course is wider than what i have been used to on modern ouds.
Though string action is great and the width of the neck too, on standards of my habits
All in all this invite to another style of playing for me.
I could have ask to settle the oud modern way, their would be space to change it 6 courses, but i wanted to keep its original settings. Particulary wide string spacement on each course, i feel it gives some character to the sound

suz_i_dil - 8-28-2021 at 01:54 AM

hello

a short take to get an idea of the sound. I will keep in mind to make a better one later

Please consider this is a mobile phone recording and i don't feel yet perfectly at home on it regarding my habits. i have too much habits on 57 diapason 6 course ouds and others style of playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dm-J_h1yFs

suz_i_dil - 8-31-2021 at 12:17 PM

Another catch putting the phone a bit more far, better with headphones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCzmHTwhZvk

What you think ? I must say i was not awaiting an old oud would sound so opened. I was representing oud of this era as more dampen sound, this gives me another idea of how oud making has been in the past. And how much might has been lost.

Looking forward to read your thoughts about, or if this instruments makes you think of others you know in this style of this era

Best wishes

MattOud - 10-8-2021 at 07:49 AM

Beautiful restoration.
There is something about seeing these things get put back together that is so satisfying.
Sounds really nice!

:applause:

majnuunNavid - 10-8-2021 at 05:19 PM

That is a perfect antique Oud now. I'm amazed by the sound. AND I love 5 courses. No frills. Excellent.

Thanks for bringing this Oud back to life. :buttrock: :bowdown:

Kelly - 12-18-2021 at 11:58 PM

Just caught up with this thread. Lovely sound particularly the depth of tone on all strings.
I’m restoring a couple of 1970 s oud one Syrian- Mohammed Haddad and another Gamil Georges and Sons. Both have similar qualities warm tones yet dry sounding ie short decay not overly resonant nor a bold projection. Difficult sometimes to find suitable words to describe these sound qualities. However age of woods and construction definitely a major factor in the whole sound and feel of these instruments. Another issue too is both needed significant neck adjustment so higher string action is a factor/ compromise perhaps ?

suz_i_dil - 12-26-2021 at 11:26 AM

Hello

as you say I agree it is a compromise. Putting higher string action will not change the timber of the oud.

But as far as i understand and experiment on floating bridges oud ( easier to change string action on those ), higher string action means for me a loss on details on the sound response, a sound more dampen and maybe a gain in volume. I make my idea comparing it to microphone, if you speak near or far from it..I guess this comparison has its limits of course. But somehow something like this if you settle the strings far or near of the sound holes.
Stteing 1mm more at the neck body joint means 3 mm more at the bridge ( for a neck of a third of the string length of course )
Then lower action can means buzz...fuzz..noise if the fretboard is not planned well with really low string action.

So yes a matter of compromise depending on what you are aiming for.
Then yes the sound timbre, nothing to be change. But for sure this one has something, it is really sweet one. I should make a new record now it has well settled.
The wood well matured for sure and its choice also. The soundboard we are not sure (cedar ? Fir wod ?). The bowl can be lime tree ( Linden) , that's an hypothesis.
I will send you the measures of string action later as an exemple for this one

Best wishes, good luck upon the restoration project.

suz_i_dil - 12-26-2021 at 01:47 PM

On this one strings had been settled this way :
. Nut just over the fingerboard, less than a mm, just outcropping it
. String height at the neck body joint 2mm trebles side , a little higher on bass side, a bit under 3mm
. String height at the middle of the rose 7mm
. Height at the bridge 7-8 mm

Hope this helps