Mike's Oud Forums

Shipping Damage to Pegbox Joint: How to Fix?

DD - 9-25-2005 at 10:11 AM

Dear Friends,

I didn't discover this until I removed all of the strings from the pegs, and a V-shaped gap fell open between the pegbox and the neck. (When the oud was delivered, the strings were tuned down but still had enough tension to hold the joint in place.)

The pegbox is still attached at its base, and the finish is still intact in that area. But if I hold the joint closed and look from the sides, I see a jagged broken line in the finish about 30mm long on each side of the joint, and if I let the un-glued part open up, I see a V-shaped gap, the "V" measuring about 5mm across at the top and about 30mm top to bottom.

I don't know how successfully I could remove the hardened glue; it wouldn't be easy to get in there with tools. I wonder whether I should try to remove the pegbox completely for a clean job (sounds tricky), or whether I should try to re-glue it without removing the old glue?

Does anyone have any comments or suggestions? I wish that my digital camera were working so that I could take photos. If someone thinks that photos are important, though, I'm sure I could borrow a camera and get photos up in a few days.

I read one luthier's suggestions at "Luthier Technical Q & A" at the Frets.com website, that for a clean break, he would use hot hide glue, but for a reglue job such as this, he would use a cyanoacrylate for good adhesion to a dirty surface, saying that that type of glue also has good cohesive strength and can fill gaps well. What do you think?

Thank you all so much. This discovery has me stunned, and it's very comforting to know that you're all out there.

Peace,
Don

akram - 9-25-2005 at 10:26 AM

could you bast picture so i can tell you how you can do it
akram

Jonathan - 9-25-2005 at 05:02 PM

We need pics. I will say that I had a similar problem not long ago (except in my case the peg box came completely off, and the repair was pretty easy:
http://mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2479
I just used a simple carpenter glue, and the repair is holding fine.

DD - 9-25-2005 at 07:34 PM

Right. I'll try to borrow a camera and post pictures at least by Friday, thank you Akram and Jonathan—and yes, Jonathan, I was glad to read that thread when I first discovered this damage.

The old glue on this joint seems fairly substantial, and it seems perhaps to be preventing the joint from coming all the way together. For whatever reason, since the gap opened up when I removed the strings, the two pieces don't come back together as tightly as they should: If I tune the strings back up, the high c is definitely too close to the fingerboard, though not by very much; it sounds a bit dulled and it buzzes in some notes (the other strings sound good as always). Maybe that would be rectified by a good gluing and clamping, or maybe I would need to put a different shim under the nut after this (there is one there now—both it and the nut loose, by the way), or, of course, a new nut.

Anyway, I'll find that camera and get those pictures up, and we'll see what everybody thinks.

Thank you and bless you,
Don

DD - 9-30-2005 at 05:23 PM

Hi Guys,

Got the camera today. Here are the photos as PDFs attached to this and the next 4 posts. The first 2 are closeups w/joint closed to show the crack in the finish; the next one is at 1/2 meter w/joint gap open to show perspective; and the final two are closeups of each side of the open gap.

Thanks again and again,
Don

DD - 9-30-2005 at 05:33 PM

Well! That certainly took a good part of the evening over this out-in-the-sticks dialup connection. Launching photo the second (and going for a walk)...

DD - 9-30-2005 at 05:41 PM

Photo the Third...

DD - 9-30-2005 at 05:53 PM

Fourth...

DD - 9-30-2005 at 06:00 PM

Fifth and last...

oudmaker - 9-30-2005 at 07:47 PM

Dear Friend
Go to:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2479
Jonathan had same problem and he fixed it. See how he did it. You can do sameway and easily fix it.
Regards
Dincer

DD - 10-1-2005 at 09:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oudmaker
Dear Friend
Go to:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2479
Jonathan had same problem and he fixed it. See how he did it. You can do sameway and easily fix it.
Regards
Dincer


Thank you Dincer,

It is encouraging to know that you consider it a simple and easy fix. The pegbox is still attached to the neck in only a small area—maybe only by the thick finish at its base—and I wonder:

Do you think it would be best to take the pegbox off completely, so that I could clean the parts before gluing, or would it best to leave it attached as it is, and just glue and clamp it without scraping it clean?

I very much appreciate your input,
Don

SamirCanada - 10-1-2005 at 10:19 AM

After seeing ur pictures, I would advice you to take it off completely and sand the dryed glue that is there to be shure that when you glue it again you have a clean surface to apply the new glue. I have done this type of repair before and that's what I have been told is best.
Dinçer Bey is this correct?

oudmaker - 10-1-2005 at 12:17 PM

Yes that is correct
However do not use sandpaper to clean the joint It makes flat sufaces round
Use knife instead
Dincer

Jonathan - 10-1-2005 at 01:34 PM

Don't use crazy glue, or gorilla glue, or anything similar. Use a simple carpenters wood glue.

akram - 10-2-2005 at 01:37 AM

hello dd
it is not hard to fix it
as the other member's said
i did do this
be careful if you use sandpaper so that the 2 side's will the same
if you use knife be very careful with the hand
good luke
akram

DD - 10-2-2005 at 11:21 AM

I'm very glad, and grateful, for everybody's advice.

Yes, that definitely feels best: taking the joint completely apart, cleaning the wood, and doing a thorough job. Also, that way I should be able to make the finish more orderly and aesthetic where it has cracked. (If anybody has any tips in that regard, of course, I'd love to hear them.)

To get the pegbox the rest of the way off, probably first I'll "continue" the crack in the finish around the entire joint by scoring it with something—maybe a sharp piece of plastic, or even an orangewood stick, to try to avoid scoring the wood itself—and then gently and slowly work the two pieces apart. I'll let you know how that goes.

Thank you, Everyone,
Don

SamirCanada - 10-2-2005 at 01:06 PM

If you find it hard to use a knife. you coud use a popsicle stick to wich you glue sand paper. just maker shure to have a even presure on the stick when you sand the old glue and some of the wood as to prevent you from rounding the edges of the neck.
Regards
Samir

DD - 10-4-2005 at 08:07 AM

Yes, it was attached only by the finish; the joint came apart easily without any coaxing.

The break was uneven, partly in the glue and partly in the wood on both pieces, so there is some glue and some wood on both sides of the break—complicated, but AFAIK it will glue up fine.

I think that the difficult task is going to be touching up the finish afterward. There were some small, barely adhering chips of wood on the outside of the joint that had to come off, and after gluing there will be some pits to fill.

I'm sure it will all work out well, thanks largely to all of you.

My best to you always,
Don

revaldo29 - 10-4-2005 at 06:42 PM

Hey DD,

Is your oud new? Could you tell us what type of oud and who you bought it from? This might be kind of trivial, but what did the seller say? I would like to think that sellers are taking responsibility for damage that occurs during shiping. Especailly if the instrument is brand new and professional quality.

SamirCanada - 10-4-2005 at 06:55 PM

Your right Revaldo.
If your shipping a Nahat you get insurance right? no Daaaah!
But the problem with ouds is that there fragile. And you hope that when its shipped it comes in one peice. Thats why I dont do the packagin myself when I send one I let a compagny do it because they insure there labour itself not everyone does that. The other thing is that I think for a beginer oud the price of shipping it back and forth again would be too high to cover the price of the instrument and more dangerous than to just perform the repair yourself. Even tho the seller could help out its a bit hard in these situations. Since its the one buying who takes the risk. Its a bumer to get shipping dammage but thats the risk of getting it shipped and not going to get it yourself. And the other thing is that when I had that broken pegbox the same way.. I tought Iam lucky the whole thing didnt fall apart and i looked at it sort of like ok how can I fix this. And I learnt from fixing it.
Most of the time for low price ouds it isnt worth claming insurance for it to send it back. I dunno really how insurance works actualy do you keep the oud and get your money back? or you have to send the broken oud back and then get your money back? its all shady really
Anyways thats my 2 cents hopefully someone can explain how insurance works.
Cheers

revaldo29 - 10-4-2005 at 07:21 PM

Hey Samir,

Yeah I know what you mean. I just hope the oud wasn't very expensive. From the very little I saw in the pictures, it seemed like a deascent oud.

adnan

DD - 10-5-2005 at 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by revaldo29
Hey DD,

Is your oud new? Could you tell us what type of oud and who you bought it from? This might be kind of trivial, but what did the seller say? I would like to think that sellers are taking responsibility for damage that occurs during shiping. Especailly if the instrument is brand new and professional quality.


Hi Adnan,

I appreciate your questions. Yes, I bought the oud (which I love, BTW) about a month ago from Yehia at Nile Shop. He described it as about "95% professional." In quality and price, it is in between their eBay ouds and their least expensive professional ouds. You can read about it in this thread, and for a picture, scroll down to the post titled PDF Photo and click on the attachment (the earlier photo came out unclear).

I emailed Yehia 10 days ago as soon as I discovered this break. He got right back to me and asked for details, and said that he would talk to the luthier; I told him that I would ask at the forum, which he thought was a good idea. Then he became ill and unable to talk to the luthier for several days, and I heard from the forum before I heard from him.

When the luthier did respond, I think he was trying to give as quick and easy a solution as possible, because his suggestion was to apply glue in the gap, re-string the oud, and let it sit for a couple of days until the glue was set. On the other hand, the forum consensus suggestion of taking the joint apart, cleaning, and then re-gluing it is naturally more thorough and will be more stable, (especially when you consider that without taking it apart, the back base of the pegbox wouldn't get re-glued). I continue to be so grateful for this forum!

I took pretty much the same attitude as Samir describes about the damage in shipping, and like Samir, I too have learned from it. I feel more comfortable now with the thought of putting in ebony pegs at some point, for example, and maybe trying out different materials for the nut some time, though the current bone nut seems very nice.

Since this is the first oud that I have played, I'm certainly no connoisseur, but I continue to love the sound, and I almost can't believe the fluidity of the action—and without frets, I'm a new man altogether!! Probably in a year or so I'll be getting a higher quality instrument, and by that time, I'll really know what kind I want (right now I'm thinking floating bridge....).

Take care,
Don

revaldo29 - 10-5-2005 at 03:09 PM

Hey DD,

Man that must really suck to get your first oud and see that its damaged. I guess, like samir said, this is the inevitable risk you take when getting ouds shipped. Never-the-less, it makes me think twice about buying a oud I can't see and take home with me. But what can you do, this is the price we pay for living in the west.

take care,
adnan