Mike's Oud Forums

Risha Techniques ... are there any rules to go by?

sydney - 12-12-2005 at 07:57 AM

Hello

I get that question from many.

A lot of people are wondering if there are any rules for the risha.

Should it be down - up ? or down , down - up ? or what?

This is a question for all oud players to jump in and talk about.

Any opinion counts

Jason - 12-12-2005 at 07:17 PM

I think it depends on the technical demands of the music as well as the style/inflection you need to produce.

For example, I almost always use downstrokes on drone notes because I feel I can get the string moving better with a downstroke and it gives it a bit more sustain. The music also plays a role in this... downbeats should almost always be played with a downstroke whereas pickup notes should usually be played with an upstroke unless you want them to be emphasized.

When using alternating strokes it's important to make them as economical as possible. It is preferrable to avoid picking 'inside' two strings... you wouldn't want to be stuck playing downstroke C string / upstroke G / Down C / etc. It is much more fluid sounding to play it using the opposite motion.

I use the same general guidelines that guitarists use to choose either an up or down stroke. That said, I also pay close attention to what oudists do, there is definately a tendency in oud music to use many more downstrokes than you'd see most guitarists do. It's hard to make 'rules' about such things because every player will do things slightly different.

Greg - 12-12-2005 at 10:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jason
... you wouldn't want to be stuck playing downstroke C string / upstroke G / Down C / etc.


That is precisely the action that I find most difficult and therefore spend the most time practicing.
I believe that particular action is a very necessary one in oud playing, particularly in fast passages.

I am pleased that Sydney raised this subject, as I would love to hear if there are any rules that the different schools of oudists follow.
I find myself doing straight alternate up and down strokes at most times and that seems okay, provided I play the upstrokes as cleanly as the down. But I feel sure there must be some "proper" rules.

Regards,

Greg

SamirCanada - 12-12-2005 at 11:13 PM

I think Ronny Andersson had a lot of info on the risha techniques. Especialy since the Iraqi school stresses the use of all the different risha techniques. It would also be nice to see how they compare to the syrian and egyptian styles.

billkilpatrick - 12-13-2005 at 01:08 AM

the sound you wish to make - plus comfort - dictates how it's held. if it doesn't feel right and doesn't sound right, don't do it.

i prefer a sloppy risha to one held tightly - high in "mish" low on "crisp" - with a bit more of the tip of the risha striking the strings than is normal.

early on, i copied the position of a tunisian player i saw in a photo and slipped the end of the risha between my ring and little fingers so that it exits the palm there.

listen very carefully and do whatever ronnny tells you ...

Technique

sydney - 12-13-2005 at 02:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by billkilpatrick
the sound you wish to make - plus comfort - dictates how it's held. if it doesn't feel right and doesn't sound right, don't do it.


This is a very good advice - I wrote that down to always remeber. Thanks Bill

Quote:
Originally posted by billkilpatrick
listen very carefully and do whatever ronnny tells you ...


I did not get that one? who/where is ronny ?

billkilpatrick - 12-13-2005 at 03:48 AM

ronny is one of those nordic trolls you hear about who live in caves and under bridges and frighten the wits out of passing billy goats.

he is also very knowledgeable of all things oud(y) and very generous with it. he used to have a beautiful site called "iraqi oud" or something like that but the last time i tried it, the server he uses (used?) seemed more intent on hooking me up with a swedish "escort" than telling me the where ronny and his ouds had gotten to.

he sometimes contributes to the site. find his name in the archives and send him a u2u message or better yet, search the archives for what he and others have said previously on the subject.

ciao - bill

That was funny Bill

sydney - 12-13-2005 at 04:00 AM

I did not realize you were talking about Ronny Anderson.

Yeah he is very knowledgeable of all things oud(y) and very generous with it. I totally agree.

I did a quick search but did not find where he talked about this subject ... please kindly take me there.

billkilpatrick - 12-13-2005 at 06:56 AM

"risha" produced a long list of prior posts but this was mentioned in an earlier thread called "can someone explain" posted on 5-13-2005 by "egypt omar":

http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/plucking.html

ronny's old site:

http://www.iraqi-oud.com/

doesn't function any more, at least with my search engine.

you might also try:

http://www.oudcafe.com/

mavrothis has posted very clear instruction on this as well as many other things relating to the oud.

ciao - bill

Jameel - 12-13-2005 at 07:03 AM

Remember these threads?

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=1767#pid112...

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=648&pag...

LeeVaris - 12-13-2005 at 07:25 AM

Right now, in my ongoing evolution as an oud player, I am obsessing over risha technique. I have tried numerous hand positions, grips, hard and soft risha, exotic materials and shapes for risha. I am certain that you can develop a technique for anything but at the moment I'm favoring Jameel's "Tortis" risha and a medium hard "Delrin" plastic material used for Harpsichord plectrum (the Delrin actually has a softer surface with a little less "click" than the Tortis picks)

The most important part of risha technique is developing a relaxed hand! Don't grip too tight... practice slow tremolos and gradually speed up without "tightening up". Up and down strokes are executed with the wrist, not the arm or hand - small movements instead of wild arm swinging. Your arm should float a bit, craddling the oud loosely - resist the temptation to crush the oud with your arm and shoulder - sit up straight, as much as possible and relax the shoulders - let gravity gently pull down the shoulders, don't lift them to get over the oud. Relax, relax, relax the hand and arm! The only slight tension you should feel will be in your forearm to control the rotation movement necessary for the risha stroke.

The second area to develop, after you can relax enough, is control over the risha's angle of attack. A grip with the risha through the ring and little fingers ( like what Bill uses)will give you a steep angle and a harder sound. It will also limit the variety of angles you can employ so I don't necessarily recommend it. Besides this angle there is the relative flatness to the face the the risha can assume - flater angles will give a softer sound - you can get it so that the underside of the risha brushes over the string or so that it strikes the string straight up and down, perpendicular to the face for a very hard crisp sound. The direction of the stroke also comes into play. Different sounds can be had with the risha movement across or pushed into the face. Rest strokes, where the risha comes to rest on the next string in a down-stroke, create a great "punch" for emphasis. The depth that the risha travels into the string should also be considered. You should develop the ability to vary the stroke for creative effect but always remember to RELAX...

sydney - 12-13-2005 at 07:27 AM

Thank you Bill and Jameelo


I'd like to put the question into more accurate form.

Let's take a scale that goes Low to High C,D,E,F,g,a,b,c and the same scale going the opposite way.

What is the best risha technique used to play that scale in both directions?

Also when studying or playing a maqam ... is there a risha rule to be used?

Brian Prunka - 12-13-2005 at 07:56 AM

For classic Arabic playing, the guideline roughly seems to be: if you can play it with a downstroke, do it. This gives it a more 'Arabic' character, as opposed to Turkish. Try to watch Arabic oud players; a lot of things that I initially thought couldn't be played with all downstrokes turned out to be possible, and I wouldn't have known without seeing it done.
At moderate tempos, quarter notes and eight notes should usually be all or mostly downstrokes. In many muwashahat, basharef, and sama'iyat, even 16ths should be played with mostly downstrokes (depends on the tempo).

Regarding the down/up string crossing, I think Grag and Jason are both right. Players traditionally avoid the down/upstring crossing from higher to lower, as it is the most difficult motion, even if it puts your upstroke on the beat and your downstroke off the beat (which is not a problem if you have worked to make the two strokes even or if you wish the passage to be syncopated). However, certainly modern players like Simon Shaheen (and probably Farid, though I can't be sure) have worked at developing that down/up string crossing so that it is fluid. Also down/down is an excellent choice for many string crossings in both directions. When going down/down from a low string to the immediately higher one, make sure that it is done without a separate stroke--it's more like one big stroke with a slight pause in the middle.

Lee has some excellent suggestions, particularly about being able to vary the angle of the risha against the string. I notice that when Simon plays really fast, the risha is closer to perpendicular (though not totally). When he plays normally, it is at a much steeper angle. Control over the angle also makes the different string crossings easier.
Also, try to avoid hitting the face of the oud with the risha (though this can be an effect, it's not something you want to do all the time).

Also, make sure that your risha is prepared by being far enough above the string to have some momentum, and that you follow through enough to get a clean stroke. A mistake a lot of beginners make (including myself) is to think that you have to hit the strings hard for a big sound, while trying to stay as close to the strings as possible. While you don't want to have your hand all over the place, you do need to get some momentum going. Usually, if the risha starts level with the string that's two below the one you want to hit (say if you want to play the G string, your risha will start out level with the A string), then you're fine. For very fast passages, it should stay a little closer. Think of a baseball player; if he wants to hit the ball when it's nearly beside him, he starts with the bat way behind him and follows through until it's in front of him. By having the motion right, you can get a big sound without hitting too hard (which makes it louder, but hurts the projection because it's not clear).

Also, in between strokes, see if there's any hesitation (a mirror helps). Many people (again, myself included) develop a habit of rushing into a note, preparing for the next note too early, then hesitating before rushing into the next note. Try to get multiple strokes in one fluid motion . . . it's like a circle.

Brian Prunka - 12-13-2005 at 08:07 AM

Hey sydney, our posts crossed in cyberspace . . .
I'll try to answer your post.

Assuming that the scale is not slow enough that all downstrokes would work, here's a few possibilities:
] = down, < = up

C] D] E< F] G] A< B] c] B] A< G] F] E< D] C]

This is the most common, but you have to work on the down/down string crossings, especially on the descending scale.

You could also do:

C] D< E] F< G] A< B] C< B] A< G] F< E] D< C]

but this requires the down/up string crossing from G to F descending.
You could also mix the two versions.

Now we are talking

sydney - 12-13-2005 at 09:34 AM

Hello Brian,

I believe you have taken this thread into the right direction with your last post. . But of course I have to thank Lee for his input and I want to ask him a favor later on...


I have learnt the first technique over ten years ago.

] = down, < = up

C] D] E< F] G] A< B] c] B] A< G] F] E< D] C]

as you said it is the most common. I do find it the best technique with fast scales I am not sure if any other members have different style for fast scales.

The second style is also fine but it can not be fixed rule as you mentioned in your G to F example.

Mixing between the two what we end up doing with time and experience. But...

Is there any steps to help oud beginners to follow a rule to practice on any piece of music? so they end up with a some kind of brain registry and it becomes an automatice style.

can that be made possible?

__________________________________________

Lee, always nice to read your posts mate.

Watching Simon Shaheen or any other profesional oud player does not make it clear or easy for oud beginners to learn how to hold the risha the right way.

Can you please take a photo looking from above to how you hold your risha showing the angle of it on the strings? I am sure it will favor your explaination. Also if anybody who is willing to provide a good photo of how to hold the risha please do.

billkilpatrick - 12-13-2005 at 10:02 AM

if i understand correctly, regardless of how the risha is held, there are prescribed - ] = down, < = up - sequences for each modal pattern.

is that right?

- bill

Brian Prunka - 12-13-2005 at 11:09 AM

Hi Bill,

i think that ultimately, the performer decides on a pattern based on their taste and the particular piece of music. I don't think one can say there are prescribed patterns.
Some things that are taken into consideration:
tempo
accents
phrasing
ornamentation
origin of the piece (some Turkish pieces really require a different approach)
there are probably many others that people can add.

the above example is just for a scale, not for a piece of music, and the demands vary quite a bit depending on the specifics. If I had a scanner, I'd be happy to mark up an actual piece of music with suggestions and post it . . . but I don't. Maybe someone else can?

Practical application

Jameel - 12-13-2005 at 12:04 PM

Brian,

As always, very helpful info.

I'm curious as to how you would "pick" this passage from Tanrikorur's "Samai Nahawand" played here by Simon Shaheen.

I know for a fact that Simon plucks the bass A with a downstroke, then begins the alternate A Ab A Bb passage with a downstroke on A. It's strict alternate picking playing that part four times in a row. After that, I'm not sure what to do. I've tried strict alternate, and it would seem that's the best choice due to the speed of the passage. I'd also like to know your opinion on positions and when to shift during this passage.

Here are the notes:

A Ab A Bb (x4) C# Bb C# D E D E F G F G A Bb

How I've been playing it. using strict down-up, except C# Bb C# sequence all down to eliminate that difficult down on c up on g pattern. Although at top speed that seems impossible.


note, finger : 2A 1Ab 2A 3Bb (x4) 1C# 3Bb 1C# 2D 4E 2D (shift) 1E 2F 4G 2F (shift) 1G 3A 4Bb

Jameel - 12-13-2005 at 01:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sydney
Also if anybody who is willing to provide a good photo of how to hold the risha please do.

Jameel - 12-13-2005 at 01:11 PM

...closer

Brian Prunka - 12-13-2005 at 02:23 PM

Jameel, I think your picking is right, with C# Bb C# being all down.
It seems impossible at top speed, but I think that's how simon is doing it. Note the slight pause between the first C# and the subsequent Bb . . .
An alternative fingering is possible in this part:
C#1 [shift] D1 E3 D1 [shift] E1 F2 G4 F2 [shift]G1 A3 Bb4
but I think yours is better pecause it preserves the symmetry of the finger motion.

billkilpatrick - 12-13-2005 at 02:57 PM

by slowing it down, in a conscious effort to follow the exact up/down sequence of my risha, i noticed something i've not understood before from this or any other thread dealing with the risha.

this may be complete and utter poppy <b>rooster</b> but here goes ...

instead of consciously applying the tip of the risha to the strings in a "one stroke down, return stroke up" manner, what i do when i play is work the risha over the strings in what ever way that comes naturally for the rhythm and is coordinated with the activity of my left hand. in other words, instead of focusing my attention on the tip of the risha (down for one note, up for the next) what i'm focused on is where my thumb and forefinger are holding the risha and keeping my wrist loose ... the half inch or so of the "business end" of the risha, extended towards the strings, just happens to be picking out a melody in consequence.

i hope i've made a clear distinction and i hope i haven't just given you all a perfect description of how NOT to play the oud ...

- bill

poppyrooster?!? how about what i wrote, which was poppy<b>rooster</b> ... poppy rooster!?!? do you belive it?

LeeVaris - 12-13-2005 at 03:53 PM

I think the photo of Simon is very telling. Simon holds the oud like many arabic players with his shoulders relaxed and his arm coming around the rear of the instrument. This places his hand/arm parallel and inline with the strings. The risha is pointing up so the flat part is angled down, flat part facing the strings - when the risha hits the string in a down stroke it will push the string slightly into the oud causing the string to vibrate in & out from the face - you get a completely different sound - rounder with a swelling volume - than when the string vibrates side to side across the face. This hand position favors volume on down strokes which definitely makes sense with arabic style!

Although its really hard to see, Munir Bashir's hand position in the video with Omar posted on the videos page, is very different. The risha, for the most part points towards the pegbox, almost paralel to the strings - he generally takes a straighter attack with the risha more perpendicular rather than angled. The risha doesn't enter the strings as deeply and the result is a thinner crisper sound. Of course both musicians mix things up a bit from these basic approaches for dynamic variation.

In the video the good doctor posted, John Bilezikjian, like many Turkish players, holds the instrument with his arm resting over the top edge - the right arm hangs down across the strings at an angle. This places the hand a little closer to the sound hole and also allows for easier movement forwards (towards the sound hole) and back (towards) the bridge. It also means that the risha will tend to angle down onto the strings rather than angling up. The risha is still flattened towards the string but the action is slightly angled across the string during the stroke - the sound here has yet another character. You can really see how relaxed John's hand is even when playing rapid notes. His wrist is verrrrry loose, yet he gets a very authoritative attack and the risha clears the string quickly.

Every great player develops a technique that ends up being very individual and the quality of sound comes from a combination of factors - most importantly risha technique. Now, if I can just figure out what Farid is doing...

Jason - 12-13-2005 at 05:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Greg
Quote:
Originally posted by Jason
... you wouldn't want to be stuck playing downstroke C string / upstroke G / Down C / etc.


That is precisely the action that I find most difficult and therefore spend the most time practicing.
I believe that particular action is a very necessary one in oud playing, particularly in fast passages.


I should clarify that I wasn't suggesting one should avoid picking inside the string altogether. It's definately something everyone should practice and eventually be able to do as well as any other pattern. There are situations where you will you have to use that picking action, it's just not the most economical of approaches.

I've been experimenting with holding the oud and risha more like Shaheen. I find it tiring to come from behind the oud as much as he does, I think I just haven't found the exact position I need to be in.

Cool thread!

More Photos

LeeVaris - 12-13-2005 at 06:03 PM

Here are some shots of my teacher Wa'el Kakish:

LeeVaris - 12-13-2005 at 06:15 PM

You can clearly see the upward angle of attack. Wa'el holds the risha very loose with a very open palm - other players tend to close the hand around the risha more. He also tends to craddle the oud higher, sort of halfway between arabic and turkish approaches. Everybody seems to have a slightly different "style" - Here's a view from the top:

One more photo

LeeVaris - 12-13-2005 at 08:23 PM

This is Afif Taian - you'll notice how tight an angle his wrist is at, almost 90°! At this moment he is playing near the bridge - something he likes to do a lot. He has a very percussive technique. You can see the angle of the risha (even though you can't see the risha itself because its moving soo fast) - again, angled up like Simon Shaheen! When Afif uses tremolo he moves back towards the bridge and uses mostly the tip of the risha with very strong up and down strokes. He told me an excercise he uses - strong down (rest) stroke, up, down (free) stroke... try to make the tempo very even but place the emphasis on the first down stroke. You can also see that he cradles the oud around the end but places the edge of the oud halfway up the forearm - his arm is in-line with the strings but the risha engages the strings right near the bridge. He also holds the risha with the plam enclosing it, fingers wrapped around but NOT gripping it tight. The hand actually forms a pocket around the risha without tightly gripping it!

Jameel - 12-13-2005 at 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Prunka
Jameel, I think your picking is right, with C# Bb C# being all down.
It seems impossible at top speed, but I think that's how simon is doing it. Note the slight pause between the first C# and the subsequent Bb . . .
An alternative fingering is possible in this part:
C#1 [shift] D1 E3 D1 [shift] E1 F2 G4 F2 [shift]G1 A3 Bb4
but I think yours is better pecause it preserves the symmetry of the finger motion.


Thanks, Brian!

And Lee, great pics!

One last picture

LeeVaris - 12-13-2005 at 08:30 PM

Afif again - you can see the angle of his wrist and where his forearm touches the oud - the risha angles up again.

Brian Prunka - 12-13-2005 at 11:54 PM

That down-up-down exercise is great, I was introduced to it while studying guitar years ago and was reintroduced to it by Bassam Saba. You can also do it on a pair of strings in various ways, or change which of the strokes is emphasized for further control.

sydney - 12-14-2005 at 12:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jason
I've been experimenting with holding the oud and risha more like Shaheen. I find it tiring to come from behind the oud as much as he does, I think I just haven't found the exact position I need to be in.


Hi Jason,

Being able to hold your oud like Simon Shaeen I think will depend on the depth of the bowl in some cases and will also depend on your body size. If you a have a big belly like mine "I love Egyptian food" then the oud will sit in a way that will be hard to reach the strings if your arm come from behind it. Keep trying .. you will get your self in a comfortable position for sure. Just wach for the safety of your back. I saw lots of oud player shaped like the bowl out line.

Lee,

I can never forget or deny that you are always there when asked for help. Thanks a lot. :applause:

Brian,

Your input in this thread is what made it a great one thank you. Keep it a alive good man :applause:

Jameel,

Thank you for your nice input ... highly appreciated mate. :applause:

To all who joined this cool thread ... Big thanks.

:bowdown:

I invite all oud beginners to ask their risha technique questions.

Jameel - 12-14-2005 at 06:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Prunka
That down-up-down exercise is great, I was introduced to it while studying guitar years ago and was reintroduced to it by Bassam Saba. You can also do it on a pair of strings in various ways, or change which of the strokes is emphasized for further control.


I'm not getting it. Could you explain it in a little more detail?

Brian Prunka - 12-14-2005 at 07:29 AM

Jameel,

try on a single string to play groupings of three, in the pattern down-up-down. This way you'll end up with the first and last strokes bothe being down. The first down stroke is a rest stroke, resting on the next string, followed by an upstroke, then by another down stroke. the last downstroke is free, not resting on a string but coming back around to play the down stroke that will start the next grouping.

Emad, thanks for the kind words, man. It was a good idea for you to start this thread

Brian Prunka - 12-14-2005 at 07:31 AM

By the way, Al Bardezbanian (Gardner) has his hand come around the front of the instrument like Simon and he's rather rotund, so i think it can be done.

To the next level

sydney - 12-14-2005 at 07:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Prunka
Emad, thanks for the kind words, man. It was a good idea for you to start this thread


Cheers Brian, :wavey:

Do you think you can provide a close up short video for us to have a better understanding to your example?

Jameelo, I guess you can too. You are a great film producer :D

cool thread indeed

Brian Prunka - 12-14-2005 at 07:53 AM

Sorry Emad, I don't have a video camera . . .

Ronny Andersson - 12-14-2005 at 09:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by billkilpatrick
ronny is one of those nordic trolls you hear about who live in caves and under bridges and frighten the wits out of passing billy goats.


That was funny Billy:))



he is also very knowledgeable of all things oud(y) and very generous with it. he used to have a beautiful site called "iraqi oud" or something like that but the last time i tried it, the server he uses (used?) seemed more intent on hooking me up with a swedish "escort" than telling me the where ronny and his ouds had gotten to.


My site can be found here http://www.iraqioud.com This site is to commercial and really don't like it when I'm in to playing, teaching more than to sell ouds....so this site will most likely be removed soon and a new site my own music is scheduled.

Btw how did you like the Swedish escorts:rolleyes: Any oud player among them:cool:

Ronny Andersson - 12-14-2005 at 10:19 PM

Originally posted by LeeVaris
I think the photo of Simon is very telling. Simon holds the oud like many arabic players with his shoulders relaxed and his arm coming around the rear of the instrument. This places his hand/arm parallel and inline with the strings. The risha is pointing up so the flat part is angled down, flat part facing the strings - when the risha hits the string in a down stroke it will push the string slightly into the oud causing the string to vibrate in & out from the face - you get a completely different sound - rounder with a swelling volume - than when the string vibrates side to side across the face. This hand position favors volume on down strokes which definitely makes sense with arabic style!

Although its really hard to see, Munir Bashir's hand position in the video with Omar posted on the videos page, is very different. The risha, for the most part points towards the pegbox, almost paralel to the strings - he generally takes a straighter attack with the risha more perpendicular rather than angled. The risha doesn't enter the strings as deeply and the result is a thinner crisper sound. Of course both musicians mix things up a bit from these basic approaches for dynamic variation.

Yes correct Lee, the Bashir style is completely different all other styles of playing and I'll upload couple of videos with me playing his own compositons to better show the right hand technique than what you can see on the tape with Omar and Munir.

SamirCanada - 12-14-2005 at 11:43 PM

Thanks Ronny!.
Nice to see your still around

billkilpatrick - 12-15-2005 at 12:27 AM

yeah ... where you been?

Ronny, We are waiting for your videos

sydney - 12-21-2005 at 04:21 AM

:wavey:

Com'on man
:D