Mike's Oud Forums - Powered by XMB

Faruk Türünz Specialised Tools

Greg - 1-21-2006 at 11:03 PM

In early November, I ordered an oud from Faruk Türünz.
It is now finished and I expect to receive it within the next couple of weeks. It has been an absolute delight to do business with Mr Türünz; he has been very patient and helpful during the whole process.
In consultation, I eventually decided on 25 staves of a highly figured wood callled pommele (a kind of Mahogany) with maple purfling. I will post pictures when available, but I have seen some "under construction" shots and it looks great. I am confident it will sound just as good.

During the process, Mr Türünz sent me some photos of some of the special tools he and his apprentice use in the building process. I include the photos here, as I know they will be of interest, in particular, to Richard and Jameel (and of course Jonathan ;-).
These tools and jigs were all designed and made by an engineer colleague of Mr Türünz.

Best regards,

Greg

Jameel - 1-22-2006 at 08:22 AM

Thanks for posting these, Greg.

Farouk sent me some of his jig photos a couple years ago, and I'm attaching them here. But this is a greater collection for sure. For more production runs, these jigs and fixtures definitely speed up the process. They look like more like jigs that would be used for assembling aircraft parts, or some other high-tech application. I'd love to have a jig that would bend ribs (I'm actually working on one), but anything beyond that wouldn't justify the time-savings when making say, one oud per year. There are those that think power-tools have a limited role in oud-making. I respectfully disagree. I think if a joint or part can be made more accurately with a power tool, then all the better. It's only when power tools cause the luthier to depart from a standard that their use becomes detrimental. One example I can think of is in the moulding industry. After the implementation of rotary cutters (shapers or routers), certain classic profiles which could only be cut with moulding planes, were no longer produced. Many period profiles cannot be duplicated with rotary cutters because they cannot cut beyond the arc of their motion (always a circle) without wasting material, this is why modern mouldings utilize more sterile circular designs, while classic mouldings use ellipses and the like.

Please post some pics and sound samples of your new oud when you get a chance.

Wm. De Leonardis - 1-22-2006 at 09:04 AM

Here are a two pictures that Faruk sent me of my oud being built. I thought they would be of interest here since they show the mould he uses--it appears to be made of plastic!

William

Wm. De Leonardis - 1-22-2006 at 09:06 AM

Next one

Dr. Oud - 1-23-2006 at 02:57 PM

I for one object to the use of power tools to build what should be an artistic object. I find myself in a "zone" working with chisels and knives but when using power tools my main thoiught is how to avoid injury or damage to the material. Then there's the limitations Jameel pointed out in mouldings. There are limitations on all machine movements, causing the result to look machine made. The perfection and symmetry production by machines is a detriment to the instrument for me. I prefer the slightly lopsided and variable appearance of a hand fiormed and cut piece of work. It has soul that is lost when a motor does the cutting. The time it takes to produce jigs and fixtures is lost unless you're in high production mode. So how many ouds can you sell? Not enough to justify the time and expense of fixturing and powering the parts, I bet. I would like to see a rib bender, though....

Jonathan - 1-23-2006 at 07:59 PM

Guitar side rib benders are so common, its hard to believe that nobody has made on for ouds yet. Any thoughts on Turunz's mould? The idea seems pretty interesting to me. No real access from underneath but it seems like it could help in fine tuning the shape a bit. I wonder what it is made out of.
I love pics like these. You really learn a lot about the different approaches. And I love the fact that oudmakers aren't so secretive of their techniques.

SamirCanada - 1-23-2006 at 09:16 PM

Maybe the material used for his mould doesnt stick to glue to easy?
Just a thought. Since it would be tricky to use when glueing.
UNLESS! he uses 2 moulds one to glue on and this one to check each ribs more precicely.

Greg - 1-24-2006 at 12:46 AM

Richard,

Are you saying you object to the use of bandsaw and post-drill? As far as I can see, they are the only two powered tools shown in any of the above pictures?

I am not a craftsman and therefore have little knowledge of the instrument building process, but i would have though that the use of precision jigs could only aid in the process of building an instrument to desired specifications. Without such precision would not the end result be more a matter of luck than good design?

Regards,

Greg

farukturunz - 1-24-2006 at 05:37 AM

Perfection and Symmetry

These two qualities invite each other and are obviously divine peculiarities. An objection to these qualities can only be understood in the context of humanly inability otherwise “detriment to the instrument” stays as a very subjective assertion. Since 1984 I have been building ouds and since 1997 I have started to use these tools. Yurdal Tokcan still plays one of my ouds which I made for him in 1992. Like this one none of my ouds had any “…slightly lopsided and variable appearance of a hand formed and cut piece of work”. So all of my ouds both pre-tooled ones and the present samples have the same perfect features to cause Dr. Oud blame all as having detrimental characteristics. Dr. Oud never misses any opportunity to object “slightly” to any of my contributions to the “Oud World”. However all of these contributions can help to elevate the total profit for sake of the Oud. Nevertheless all objections based on subjective or objective reasons help us to judge the issue once more.

With all my respect,

Faruk

Jameel - 1-24-2006 at 06:27 AM

I'd like to dispell the notion that doing something entirely by hand somehow gurantees that it can't be symmetrical or excecuted to the degree that it can be described as "perfect" (which I interpret to mean meeting the builder's specifications and expectations to his full satisfaction). Quite the contrary. Richard likes his ouds to be a bit off-symmetry, slightly lopsided as he says. That is his style, he has his reasons for building this way, but I disagree that doing the work by hand somehow automatically imparts this character to a piece of work. (Incidentally, I don't think Richard has a problem with using power tools to the grunt work of oud building: resawing ribs, drilling holes, etc.) Hamza El Din's Abdo Nahat was built without the aid of power tools. It's about as perfect as they get, as well as Al Gardner's Nahat. Nothing lopsided there. Look at the furniture produced by early American cabinetmaker Duncan Phyfe. No power tools, yet his work is delicate and flawless. I could come up with dozens of examples. I think the problem with power tools and ouds comes into play when, for example, a power tool is used to perform a task that would be less accurate, but faster than if performed by hand. Faruk's jigs are tools that allow him to create a part to his specs, with speed, accuracy and repeatability. This perhaps forces a certain design to be repeated and doesn't allow for flexibility in design (other jigs can be built of course) but it doesn't necessarily have to compromise quality. There isn't one single aspect of ouds I've built that I've compromised on design because of a power tool's limitation. Quite the contrary, I've used power tools to enhance the accuracy of my work. I think also that this discussion should be make more precise by not using the term power tool to include jigs and fixtures, since some of Faruk's jigs have no relationship to power tools, such as the bending clamps. Actually, I'd be interested to know what a lot of these jigs and fixtures peform, if Faruk would be kind enough to explain some of them.

Oud Making

sydney - 1-24-2006 at 06:49 AM

I like to share my respect and admiration for the of the jigs and fixtures that Master Farouk made with creativity.

I can still sense between the lines of what Dr.Oud is saying ... That the word "Hand Made" may no longer mean the same after using jigs and fixtures but of course since the oud maker is the one who came up with those jigs and fixtures then the oud is still a hand made.

Would any oud buyer fasinated about a hand made oud understand the difference between an oud made using jigs and fixtures and another made without them?

Greg,

I can not wait to listen to your new Turunz oud.

Congratulations haboub.

Dr. Oud - 1-24-2006 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greg
Richard,

Are you saying you object to the use of bandsaw and post-drill? As far as I can see, they are the only two powered tools shown in any of the above pictures?

I am not a craftsman and therefore have little knowledge of the instrument building process, but i would have though that the use of precision jigs could only aid in the process of building an instrument to desired specifications. Without such precision would not the end result be more a matter of luck than good design?

Regards,

Greg

I was referring to the complete set of jigs and fixtures displayed in previous postings. I don't believe that jigs and fiztures enhace precision, but rather the speed of production. I use power tools myself of course, to do the rough cutting and shaping, so I'm violating my own objections, in a way, I suppose. Precision can be achieved by hand as the result of skill. Design can determine the characteristics of the instrument. The quality of tone of the instrument is a matter of luck.

I don't object to contributions to the oud world that improve the instrument. Jigs and fixtures and power tools are variations in the process of building the instrument, not necessarily an improvement in the instrument itself. Instruments have been made with precision way before the machine age which brought about a change in the way to do things. I simply prefer to work as much as possible as close to the material as I can. It is a different skill set and one I aspire to because of the creative feedback I enjoy. Perhaps I believe that as the factory process creeps in, the art process seeps out. You can buy art produced in factories, or buy art on the corner from the artist. which is better? You'll have to decide that for yourself.

Boy, this one sure ruffled some feathers, huh?

Elie Riachi - 1-24-2006 at 12:22 PM

The are plenty of Khalifeh and tourist handmade ouds out there and they sort of speak for themselves there.

I think ouds mass built by a master maker using jigs and fixtures are by far superior to ouds mass produced in a factory by a bunch of whoevers without any jigs and with dull tools where measurements and positions are eye-balled and then a label is glued on the inside.

From the point of view of improving a process, I believe that accurate and clean fixtures as well as precise and sharp power tools and calibrated measuring tools are very much desired since they would be the first step in controlling variability and optimizing repeatability.

Just because of using jigs and power tools doesn't make the product good or bad, it is still the craft hood of the user. However, I cannot help it but argue that with proper use of fixtures and power tools it makes it easier and more consistent in producing a good product.

While on the subject of to hand-make or not to hand-make, it would be interesting to build and oud mostly using CNC MCs!

About some life experiences of an oud maker

farukturunz - 1-24-2006 at 02:48 PM

An Anecdote

After one of my workshops which had taken place within an international oud meeting a young man approached with an oud in hand and said he had wanted to show it to me. I promptly recognized that gentleman: He had visited my studio in Istanbul some times ago and brought a lute to show to me. Some one accompanying to him asked in a loud voice, if I had liked the oud. I said “yes! Of course I like it. It is a very good oud!” He said “OK thank you! I was pondering about asking you if you could build an oud for me. As far as you say this maker is a good one and this oud is a good oud I changed my mind. I will want him to build an oud for me". This conversation was heard by the other bystanders. One of them pulled me to the corner and said “You should not say that you liked it. You are a very well known master oud maker. Now many people will hear that you liked and praised that maker’s oud and he will be a rival of you”. I was there to share my experiences and some one was looking forward to finding an opportunity to make me approve his work. I still have sympathy to that young and talented instrument maker and I have never regretted for what I had done. His handcraftsmanship was remarkably good and clean and the sound of his oud was good enough. Everywhere and every time there are bystanders around and being aware of my role I always say the truth and show respect to those who are trying to make good things.

A little note: The words “factory” and “to manufacture” are related words but their connotations are quite far from each other’s. The words “equity” and “devoted” may seem disinterested two but they are related if used to indicate some related qualities of the same person!

With all my respects,

Faruk

You never know Elie

sydney - 1-24-2006 at 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elie Riachi
While on the subject of to hand-make or not to hand-make, it would be interesting to build and oud mostly using CNC MCs!

Just as we see Guitiars made of plastice and sold for kids maybe someone will make a mould (Tool) to make a full oud one day - something simillar to Master Farouk's mould.

Actually this idea would be perfect for mass production of electric ouds.

CNC or "Computer numerical controls"- with a 3 axis machine I guess you can make all parts of the oud (will end up cheep with quantity) but not the bowl unless it is going to be made out of a block of wood not ribs. And it will be very expensive.

Elie Riachi - 1-24-2006 at 09:56 PM

I am thinking the ribs for the bowl could be cut at the required curvature. The scrap blocks at both ends would not get wasted either since the would go in making the peg box. I am talking about a machining center, a combination mill/lathe with turn and swivle work table so it would have 5 and possibly 6 axes plus the lathe head... No plastic molding.

sydney - 1-25-2006 at 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elie Riachi
I am thinking the ribs for the bowl could be cut at the required curvature. The scrap blocks at both ends would not get wasted either since the would go in making the peg box. I am talking about a machining center, a combination mill/lathe with turn and swivle work table so it would have 5 and possibly 6 axes plus the lathe head... No plastic molding.

Okay Elie,

I am putting my first order

The Mould

farukturunz - 1-25-2006 at 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wm. De Leonardis
Here are a two pictures that Faruk sent me of my oud being built. I thought they would be of interest here since they show the mould he uses--it appears to be made of plastic!

William

William excuse me please. I could not take the photo promptly to show the inside of that mould. Any way this delay helped in a very positive direction! Some of dear friends developed many super innovative thoughts for oud production prosesses, techniques and materials. It is my personal fault to presume people to perceive the intelligence which might have created a complete system for oud constructing process including a revolutionary soundboard design method besides this poor maker's ability to display the real faces back of the gleaming masks. First of course, I shouldn't assume them to guess the philosophy beyond a massive mould and the real material, that thing could have been done from. This must not be a forum of prejudice and slander of course and I had really no idea about it untill some times ago.

Warm regards,
Faruk

Questions to Master Farouk

sydney - 1-25-2006 at 05:32 AM

Hello Master Farouk,

I thank you for sharing all your tools photos with us. I hope my post to Elie about the CNC did not offend you in any way. It's always nice to dream with these days Hi-tech.

My questions to you is ... It looks to me like you have used laser cutting in some parts of your jigs - correct?

Did you design them your self?
What roll did your engineer friend take in this please?

farukturunz - 1-25-2006 at 06:25 AM

Quote:

My questions to you is ... It looks to me like you have used laser cutting in some parts of your jigs - correct?

Did you design them your self?
What roll did your engineer friend take in this please?

Hello Sydney, I wish it could have been realized and all the ouds could be produced on CNC systems. Then we all would freeze in fornt of this hi-tech and the system of course would leave no place to non of us to be able to buy and sell those instruments because they (the mass producers) would have no mercy towards little merchants. Finally a SUPER-OUD-PRODUCER's forum would take its position in this field, no any other oud forums could compete with it and I would decide to get retired like all my colleagues all over the world. It is the scene which George Orwell had missed in his "1984"

As for the other question: My partner Suat is a real genius on designing special tools and making them in this shop. We always complete each other having the advantage of reciprocal trust and respect. It is a big synergy. I dream a tool which may ease any process, tell him and wait. In a few minutes he imagines the shape and the functioning parts of that tool, draws it on a paper and starts to tell about how it will work. He waits for my approval and we decide together for the timing of the making process. We have not used any hi-tech machine nor had any parts of the jigs cut by laser.

Warm regards,

Faruk

Thank you

sydney - 1-25-2006 at 06:52 AM

for your reply ... :bowdown:

I do not think you have anything to worry about. Your name is well known to those who want top of the range oud.

Even though there are lots of a hi-tech hair shavers in the market today, we still go to the hair dresser. I do not mean to compare but I am sure you understand what I mean.

I can not wait for Greg to receive his new oud - I will fly from Sydney to Brisbane specially to see Greg and to play it.

Stay well.

farukturunz - 1-25-2006 at 08:53 AM

OK Sydney we are all in the same boat. Some are captain, some passengers, some hawsers, some cooks, and etc. but there are others in the other boats: Yamaha and Fender and the others for instance. Their customers, many of them great artists, great composers and players. My appearent aim is to contribute very little to the efforts to exalt the Oud instrument all together with its cultural environment to the level worthy of its nobility.

With my deepest respects.

Faruk

Elie Riachi - 1-25-2006 at 08:57 AM

Hi all,

My remark regarding CNC-MC in oud making was not to mean that the human factor is removed, an operator would still have to mount the parts on the machine properly. Also, a human is required to do some assembly.

Anyway there isn't enough demand for ouds to be made this way and even if there were a pure CNC approach may not be the best or practical since certain tasks are better performed by other processes.

But Emad from Sydney, if I get a million orders you shall be the first on the list

Wm. De Leonardis - 1-25-2006 at 11:22 AM

Greg,

It must be incredibly hard to wait until your oud arrives. I know it was for me. I think you're going to be very please with both the construction and sound of your new instrument. I can’t wait to see pictures!

Faruk,

Thank you for sharing pictures of your incredible jigs. This forum is very lucky to have your contributions—along with all of the other professionals who post.

William

Mike - 1-25-2006 at 12:18 PM

from these pictures, i think it is safe to say that Usta Turunz is truly innovative. and we already know he is highly respected when it comes to the oudmaking world (and probably the best dressed oudmaker too)

William, i agree with you...we are lucky to have his contributions. i can't wait to see and hear your new oud too Greg. mabrouk in advance bud.

farukturunz - 1-25-2006 at 02:42 PM

Thank you Elie, Emad, William, Mike for your precious remarks. I must not forget to say: you are right Mike! I must be the best dressed maker.

Mike - 1-25-2006 at 04:32 PM

Usta Faruk....I have an uncle in Egypt who does lots of business in Turkey. He goes there at least 2 or 3 times a year, and all his clothes are from there. He's definitely my best dressed uncle too!
Take care,
Mike

Greg - 1-25-2006 at 06:35 PM

Thanks to all for your kind good wishes in regard to this new love in my life (Faruk refers to her as a beautiful and charming young lady. I do hope my wife accepts her into the household ;-)

I will post a range of pictures upon arrival, but here is one from Faruk's workshop.

sydney - 1-25-2006 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grega beautiful and charming young lady.

whoooh ... very atractive too ... what size is she? 8?

Mabrok ya haboub

Good on you master Farouk

Jameel - 1-25-2006 at 07:49 PM

Love that wood. Just gorgeous. Can't wait for more pics, Greg!

ktb711 - 1-26-2006 at 01:19 AM

Hey!

I dropped by Faruk Usta's one day, saw Greg's oud (in progress) and was totally blown away by the wavy look of that wood.

Tebrikler!

ktb

Multi Kulti - 1-26-2006 at 01:34 AM

Wow I think Faruk Usta made one more miracle...

About this topic is something i want to say.

I had the honour to be in Mr. Faruk's workshop for a couple of hours (in March) and of course i was more than happy to hold and take home my custom-made Oud he made for me.I can say that his workshop is like Oud-Temple

All of the ouds i played were something special.There were similarities in design,loudness and playability but the sound-colour was different in every oud i played including mine..

As for Powertools and jigs and stuff like that i have to say that the only thing i saw there were pure hands working with wood..

Greg i understand how you feel right now

you dream of your oud everywhere

A bit sadistic feeling if you ask me

Nikos

Jonathan - 1-26-2006 at 07:58 AM

That is some incredible looking wood.

mavrothis - 1-26-2006 at 08:27 AM

Beautiful oud Greg! Congratulations!

:applause:

Greg - 1-26-2006 at 02:08 PM

Thanks again all.

Mav, I hope you have been watching young Marcos Baghdatis storm his way into the finals of the Australian Open. There are so many Greek flags in the crowd that you'd swear you were watching Euro 2004. :applause:

This young guy has won a huge fan base here. I hope he goes on to win the final on Sunday.

Regards,

Greg

mavrothis - 1-26-2006 at 02:59 PM

Hey,

Yeah, this is a great moment for him. What's cool is that he is actually half-Lebanese, half-Greek Cypriot (from what I've heard). I haven't seen any of the matches, but I'm a big tennis fan and hope to catch some reruns on ESPN. I can't believe what he's been able to do, I mean Roddick is tough to beat, and he keeps on going through opponents!

Anyway, sports aside, your oud really looks beautiful and I can't wait to hear it. One of my students ordered a Turunz oud recently and it is really impressive sounding, it will probably surpass my own Turunz which is a few years older before long.

Mike - 1-27-2006 at 12:36 PM

Greg,

The oud looks fabulous. I bet you can't wait to get your hands on it.

It is a pretty amazing run he's on guys. I don't think he can beat Roger, but still...what he's done so far is pretty remarkable...especially his semi-finals match. I'm rooting for him.

Take care,
Mike

Marcos Baghdatis

sydney - 1-27-2006 at 05:54 PM

This guy is amazing, even my 11 months daughter is crazy about him

I hope he makes it up all the way to the top.

1000 :applause:

for Baghdatis

Dr. Oud - 2-1-2006 at 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by farukturunz..... This must not be a forum of prejudice and slander of course and I had really no idea about it untill some times ago.

Warm regards,
Faruk

Dear Faruk,

I am compelled to respond to dispell what is obviously a misunderstanding of intent and meaning. To begin, the Webster's dictionary definition of slander:

1. Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2.A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

and prjudice:

1. a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.
2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

My comments are expressions of my personal preferances and opinions and contain no personally injurious or false statements. The free expression of ideas is the basis for this forum, and if those ideas conflict with yours, it is not slander or prejudice, just a different opinion. I apologize if you have taken my comments otherwise, but it was certainly not my intent. I recognize your mastery of the craft of oudmaking and your reputaion supports this. Your methods of building the oud may be more accurate than a free hand process, but I still personally believe there is plenty of precision capability in the hands of a skilled luthier using simple tools.

farukturunz - 2-1-2006 at 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Oud
I enjoy. Perhaps I believe that as the factory process creeps in, the art process seeps out. You can buy art produced in factories, or buy art on the corner from the artist. which is better? You'll have to decide that for yourself.

Boy, this one sure ruffled some feathers, huh?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Richard,

Every primary school child needs help of the elders to use a word, when writing a paragraph, in a true context. He or she has probably been told that solely to know the signification of a word is not enough to expose any significant thought. The words must be used in the true context in order to function as correct semantics elements. Please be honest to accept my reasons for using those words "prejudice" and "slander". If you had stopped after revealing your preference of course I would not have any further idea dealing with your real purpose. But unfortunately you did not stop at that point. You, as though replying to any comments dealing with any factory production, wrote the quoted lines. This is a thread which was started by Greg, to share some pictures of my jigs, with my name on the topic. I respect to people's right to express freely their thoughts and preferences.

I respect your thoughts about factory production goods and I defend your thoughts with the condition they do not take place in any thread exposing my work. Because non of any part of my work has any thing to do with "Factory production"

When looking from a distance all the parts of the scene get in the same square: Faruk Türünz and his “Factory production ouds”
Is this what you actually want to say? Or will you please clearly declare your thought about how to call Faruk Türünz style production.

Dr. Oud - 2-1-2006 at 12:30 PM

Dear Faruk,

My use of the term "factory process" was not meant to imply you use a factory production in your work. I only meant to express my preference to work with simpler tools rather than using fixtures. I would describe your methods as high precision accomplished with the aid of fixtures and special tools, not as a factory process. I accept your condition in the hope any misunderstanding will be dispelled.

farukturunz - 2-1-2006 at 02:39 PM

Thank you Richard, I believe that there is no need to lenghten this thread any more.

Brian Prunka - 2-1-2006 at 09:05 PM

My 2¢:

While I personally have a lot of sympathy for Dr. Oud's Luddite philosophy (and I mean that in a positive way!), I think any process that makes high-quality instruments more readily available to musicians has a real value that outweighs any objections.
Furthermore, no amount of mechanization/etc. will totally eliminate the purely artistic approach--It's nice that I can get a good, accurate watch for $25; and that doesn't stop artisans from making $1000 handmade precision timepieces and finding buyers.

Unfortunately, the cost of great instruments has far outpaced the ability of professional musicians to pay for them . . . if someone can speed up production and still turn out high-quality instruments (thereby reducing the cost of doing so, i.e., time=money), then I think that is a valuable cultural contribution. It puts more and better instruments into the hands of people who will make music with them (not to say they will be better than the best completely hand-made instruments, but that they will be better than comparably priced hand-made instruments).
Instrument makers I've known have figured out how many instruments they can reasonably make in a year, and set the price accordingly (taking into account overhead, materials, labor, and demand). One reason Jameel has cited in not being full-time oudmaker is that he can't make enough ouds in a year to sell each one at a reasonable price.

I, for one, am impressed with Mr. Turunz's innovations . . .

--
the above are solely the opinions of the author, who is not in any way suggesting that you should share his opinion, respect it, or even tolerate it. all complaints regarding the existence of said opinion will be duly ignored. thank you.

LeeVaris - 2-2-2006 at 04:37 PM

Well said Brian!

Dr. Oud - 2-3-2006 at 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Prunka
My 2¢:

While I personally have a lot of sympathy for Dr. Oud's Luddite philosophy (and I mean that in a positive way!), ....Instrument makers I've known have figured out how many instruments they can reasonably make in a year, and set the price accordingly (taking into account overhead, materials, labor, and demand). One reason Jameel has cited in not being full-time oudmaker is that he can't make enough ouds in a year to sell each one at a reasonable price.

I, for one, am impressed with Mr. Turunz's innovations . . .

--
the above are solely the opinions of the author, who is not in any way suggesting that you should share his opinion, respect it, or even tolerate it. all complaints regarding the existence of said opinion will be duly ignored. thank you.

Luddite? Well, I just want to clarify that I am more of a Martin Luther King - Luddite, in that I do not support the methods of the Luddite activists.
I agree with your comment about making more fine instruments available to musicians at lower cost, but the market value of these and indeed all musical instruments are determined by the market value driven by demand more than supply. It takes as long to build a guitar as an oud, but the top guitar makers make ten times as much (~$10,000) as do the top oud makers. Taken a step further, violins command about 3 times more (~$30,000) than guitars (from current violin makers). In each case there are cheap guitars and violins, so the availability of cheap instruments is not the issue really. I think it's more the sheer number of musicians that makes the high end market larger for guitars and violins and smaller for ouds.
I am impressed with Faruk as well, it's just not my way...
Thanks for the great disclaimer, if I had used it maybe I wouldn't have caused such a fuss here.

theodoropoulos - 1-12-2015 at 08:09 AM

Unfortunatelly the photos are not available as i can understand!!
Does anyone have any photow of Mr.Faruk special tools???

jdowning - 1-16-2015 at 01:08 PM

The reason the original images are no longer available is because Mike recently had to undertake an overall 'purge' (deletion) of images on all threads posted prior to November 2009 (if memory serves correctly). This was to enable him to continue to financially hosting this wonderful site out of his own pocket - for which we must all be thankful.
The situation for this thread may be easily corrected if the member who originally posted the now deleted images (Greg?) can be persuaded to repost them.

theodoropoulos - 1-16-2015 at 07:33 PM

Thank you Mr jdowin for responce.those photos were a treasure....
Please if Greg reads this,repost them....

Greg - 4-28-2015 at 04:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by theodoropoulos

Thank you Mr jdowin for responce.those photos were a treasure....
Please if Greg reads this,repost them....

Sorry for the delay Theodoropoulos. I had to hunt through some old backups to find the photos (sent to me by Faruk in November 2005).

Regards,

Greg

[file]35116[/file] [file]35118[/file] [file]35120[/file] [file]35122[/file] [file]35124[/file]

DavidJE - 4-28-2015 at 04:44 AM

As a business owner myself, it is sometimes frustrating to hear people express their ideas about my "profits" when in fact they really have no idea what they are or what goes into my work. So I'd like to point out that Faruk's "machines" also come at a cost, as do his employees and the space that they require. A single individual making ouds may be able to sell them for less because they don't have the overhead that Faruk does. So I wouldn't be so quick to decide that Faruk makes "excellent profits". I also wouldn't assume that using machines and having employees requires less hard work. In my experience, these things often mean there is more hard work and more mental pressure. It's a greater commitment with more on the line.

EDIT: Lute... Seeing how you have edited your post, it is obvious that you have something against Faruk, which is entirely unfounded and based on a lack of understanding from what I know. I'm not a forum admin, but this kind of thing has no place here in my opinion.