Mike's Oud Forums

They all sound the same!

TheCuddlyDevil - 7-1-2007 at 07:50 PM

I've recently listened to Naseer Shammah and that has got me into Arabian music. So I tried expanding and downloaded some taqsims from mp3 section in this site.

It's just that the taqsims sound the same to me! Most of them sound like slightly like shredding and I have time differentiating one from the other.

I enjoy some taqsims (particularly an Iraqi Taksim by Jamil Bashir) but not most. (I notice about Jamil's piece is that there are alot of motifs and not just scaling up and down on the fretboard)

Does anybody else have this problem?

arsene - 7-2-2007 at 07:47 AM

Some maqams are quite unusual to the western ear and can be difficult to distinguish. In fact, the only maqams we as westerners can appreciate at first are probably al-Ajam and an-Nahawand (resp. our major and minor scales, more or less).

Many maqams have notes we weouldn't even dream of (how do you sing the note between D and D#, for example??).

So it takes time to get used to...

TheCuddlyDevil - 7-2-2007 at 08:50 PM

You might be more or less correct.

Personally, I love Sikah. Prefferably with the G#. Mainly because the first 3 notes sound kind of joyous but then the G# introduces a sorrowful tone.

But I don't think it's at all about the maqams themselves, but rather the style of the taqsim. Most of the time it's a bit of shredding with very little emphasis on any one note. So it doesn't sound very melodic (and maybe even hardly tonal).

arsene - 7-3-2007 at 08:50 AM

Well, in that case, I think it's just like soloing on electric guitar. Personally, I love Mark Knopfler and Carlos Santana's solo styles, but that hardly is shredding. While they don't have a poor technique, they're not as technically advanced as say, Steve Vai or Joe Satriani. A lot of shredding nowadays misses (imo) emotion and feeling, something Knopfler and Santana DO have.

Maybe we can apply the same idea to taqsims - maybe a lot of oudists just want to show off.

Brian Prunka - 7-3-2007 at 09:20 AM

Hey Devil,

I'd like some specific examples, since it's impossible to constructively discuss this in the abstract.

I will say that the language and structure of taqsim (irrespective of the scales) and maqam are very different from what westerners are used to. It is most likely a matter of training your ears to follow the music. I say this because your comment 'they all sound the same' means that you are unable to distinguish the differences which, I assure you, are there and probably quite obvious to people who have listened to this music for a long time.

several of your other comments also indicate that you're not listening very closely:
Sikah's G#: Sikah does not have a G#, it has an Ab (actually Huzam)
Shredding (which I take to mean unstructured rapid scale-running) is not present in the majority of taqasim, which are usually slower, rubato, and have a narrow range at any given point.
very little emphasis on any one note: this is exactly the opposite of most taqasim, which spend a great deal of time on a few notes.
hardly tonal: this is absurd, arabic music is extremely tonal. There's no way even to debate this.

by the way, 'Arabian' is deprecated in most usages. The preferred term is 'Arabic'.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you have to be a little more conscientious if you're going to say things like that.

TheCuddlyDevil - 7-3-2007 at 07:29 PM

Isn't G# only a different name for Ab? And I said G# since I'm more used to referrin to sharps rather than flats.

"which are usually slower, rubato, and have a narrow range at any given point."

I wouldn't exactly define shredding as "random".

Most of the time taqsims do a lot of scale-running, though, as you said, have a narrower range than in rock (also it is played a bit slower) but that doesn't stop it, at least for me, from taking away quite a bit from the melodic content.

"this is absurd..."

You are absolutely right. I made a mistake using that term. What I did mean was, at certain points of a taqsim, lack of melody.

This is, of course, an opinion. I don't assume I'm right, I'm just trying to see what others have to say about this. So thanks alot for replying. (I was annoyed by the large number of views compared to the low number of replies)

"The preferred term is 'Arabic'."

Actually, "Arabic" is used for the language, and rarely to signify other aspects of the Arabs. "I speak Arabic", or "I enjoy Arabic literature". The phrase "I am of Arabic origin" would not be appreciated, unless you were a word :p

I look forward to your reply.

P.S. I have not listened to alot of taqsims, this is mostly based off a few taqsims I downloaded out of the taqsim section on mike's site.

SamirCanada - 7-3-2007 at 08:37 PM

Iam not a word but it is: Iam of Arab origin... not arabian origin.

Musical theory only helps so far to understand arabic music but to me you have to analyse further and listen to a lot of taqasim in a very focused way to feel how the Jinns are applied within the modulation of a taqasim. thats probably why it is still mostly taught with the help of oral instructions as the main source of information. The maqam system isnt just scales... there are disiered feelings and construction to the maqam that doesnt fit the same way as basic scales.
Sigah will develop into Huzam and it will be a shift that you couldnt ignore or ''miss''. its a powerfull modulation in my opinion definately not subtle.

I think it takes years of listening to arabic music, taqasims and music with tarab to understand what's going on. It takes a full imersion to get the full picture. If your just starting to taste the delights of oriental music then it can carry you away. Be carefull... there is more then what meets the eye and there is a need for a certain musical maturity to develop before you can make a jugement. Even for people that have listened to the music for a long time the actual mechanics behind it need to be studied with care.
Brian is someone that has immersed himself in arabic music for a long time and more importantly he has done so following one of the most knowlegeable authority on oud and arabic music today. Simon Shaheen. There is wisdom in his words take the time to really read over them.
This is just my opinion... for what its worth
I hope it was helpfull.

TheCuddlyDevil - 7-3-2007 at 09:02 PM

I agree with you Samir, and I realize that Brian is much more knowledgable of this field than I. I have read the information in his site and it has helped me much. I also agree that the ear is completely integral since the music may lead you to places you did now know about.

One more thing to Brian: the technicalities of the maqamat are overwhelming and difficult to grasp. I'm wondering if you could tell me which maqam to start with for practicing composing?

Brian Prunka - 7-3-2007 at 09:17 PM

Okay, you still haven't listed any specific taqasim to which you're referring.

I should have clarified that my comment about "Arabian" vs "Arabic" was specifically referring to music. If you google the term "arabian music" for example, you get a bout 64,000 results, many of which prefer the term "arabic music". If you google "arabic music", you get 1,300,000+ results. Not that this proves anything but it does give you an idea of actual usage.
It is not true that Arabic is not used as an adjective outside of referring to the language. When speaking of people, most often one would simply say 'Arab', most of the Arabs I know would not appreciate being referred to as 'Arabian' (with the possible exception of people who are actually from the Arabian peninsula). I know a lot of Arab musicians and everyone, without exception, uses the term 'Arabic' when referring to music (or coffee, or almost anything except horses and Saudi Arabia). In this case it's not so much a matter of one thing being more linguistically correct than another, but simply respecting the preferences of the people concerned.

your points:
Quote:

"which are usually slower, rubato, and have a narrow range at any given point." I wouldn't exactly define shredding as "random".

I never referred to shredding as being random.


Quote:

Most of the time taqsims do a lot of scale-running, though, as you said, have a narrower range than in rock (also it is played a bit slower) but that doesn't stop it, at least for me, from taking away quite a bit from the melodic content.


Your assertion that 'most of the time' taqasim do a lot of scale-running is unfounded--please give us some examples.
Also, perhaps you should consider that your concept of 'melodic content' may be inadequate. Realize also that taqasim do not exist in a vacuum, but in the context of a long tradition of improvisation, which has its own logic and structure. A melodic idea which may not seem particularly meaningful by itself can accrue significance for its role in the whole tradition of taqsim.

By the way, G# is not only a different name for Ab. 12-note instruments like piano and guitar use one note to represent both G# and Ab, but which is in fact neither, for various reasons which are too involved to get into here. On a fretless instrument like the oud, they are quite different. I'll save you the explanation, which involves a fair amount of music theory. If you're industrious, you can research it yourself. Learning to read music would be a good start. You can also do a search on the forum for 'intonation', and then read 'Harmonic Experience' by W.A. Mathieu for in-depth study.
Quote:

P.S. I have not listened to alot of taqsims


I think that this is the primary issue. I'm sure you don't mean be offensive, but when you have made very little effort to learn about and understand an art form, and then make a posting complaining that you don't get it in a way that implies that it is somehow the fault of the artists for not being easier to understand rather than your fault for not making the effort to appreciate it--well, people are mostly not going to be endeared by that.

So in an effort to help you educate yourself, here are some recommended recordings to listen to:

Munir Bashir - any taqasim recordings
Riad al-Sounbati (transliteration varies) - taqasim
Simon Shaheen/Jihad Racy - 'taqasim'
Necati Celik - 'Yasemin'

I would suggest that transcribing or learning to play even one taqsim from any of these recordings would help you immeasurably in appreciating the art of taqsim.

Brian Prunka - 7-3-2007 at 09:32 PM

Hey Devil, our posts crossed in the cyber-ether.

I'm not any kind of expert, but I am very passionate about this music (and music in general) and I have given quite a lot of time and energy to learning about it. Again, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, but I'm sure you can see how your comments might rub some people the wrong way.

As for the technicalities of the maqamat and which maqam to start with:
I'm as much of a student as anyone, so I'm still working on all this too. I'd suggest learning a number of classical pieces (samai's, bashrafs, and muwashshahs, mainly) to get a feel for how maqamat work. Listen a lot, including singers.
there's a podcast by Sami Abu Shumays that goes through maqamat structure step-by-step, really breaking it down. I posted something in the forums about it before, or search for it on the internet or on itunes.
maqamworld.com of course has a lot of great information. Dr. Scott Marcus's dissertation has quite a bit of information as well (though not everyone would agree with all of his conclusions).

This music is one of the deepest living traditions that humanity has produced . . . if you pursue it, the rewards are considerable.

Lintfree - 7-3-2007 at 11:02 PM

Yo Devil - I know what you're going through. I used to think and hear what you're hearing. That changes. I would say learn the phrasing and some good and useful techniques and do them in major and minor scales and modes that you know, that you're used to hearing. These are maqams too. And in some places the musicians only learn 6 maqams, but they really learn them. And you're right about some playing being boring because it can be very boring and as musically unrewarding as a class at Guitar Institute of Technology with someone running scale after scale after scale as fast as humanly possible. Music for me is not a demonstration of skill or complexity. I love George Van Epps and Les Paul but I'd rather listen to Django or John Lee Hooker
or Jimmy Vaughn. Because there are, often, as the man said, "too many notes."

arsene - 7-4-2007 at 09:49 AM

Devil,


In answer to your question "with which maqam to start (to practice composing)",
I'd say start with the Ajam and Nahawand maqamat, as these are probably the most familiar, easy to remember, and can be reproduced on nearly every instrument, even a piano.

These are the maqamat I took on first, and so far, it works for me to get used to this kind of playing!

SamirCanada - 7-4-2007 at 09:58 AM

what about the Jinns and the structure of the taqasim? you cant just start playing scales up and down and call it a taqasim!

arsene - 7-4-2007 at 10:19 AM

No, that is completely true, but I was talking about getting used to playing the scales, and cuddly devil mentioned practising composing, so I wasn't refering to taqasim!

SamirCanada - 7-4-2007 at 10:26 AM

sorry arsene but the Maqam is not a scale....
it doesnt mather if your composing or playing a taqasim.

read this from maqamworld.com

The building blocks for maqamat are sets of 3, 4 or 5 notes, called trichords, tetrachords and pentachords, respectively. The Arabic word for these sets is jins (plural ajnas). The word jins means the gender, type or nature of something. In general each maqam is made up two main ajnas (sets) called lower and upper jins. These can be joined at the same note, at two adjacent notes, or can overlap each other. A maqam may also include other secondary ajnas which are very useful for modulation. Instead of thinking of a maqam as a collection of 8 or more individual notes, it's often useful to think of it as a group of two or more ajnas (sets)

What is the difference between a maqam and a scale ?

The Arabic maqam is built on top of the Arabic scale. The maqam is generally made up of one octave (8 notes), although sometimes the maqam scale extends up to 2 octaves. But the maqam is much more than a scale:

A maqam may include microtonal variations such that tones, half tones and quarter tones in its underlying scale are not precisely that. E.g. the E in maqam Bayati is tuned slightly lower than the E in maqam Rast. These variations must be learned by listening not by reading, which is why the oral tradition is the correct way to learn Arabic music.


Each maqam has a different character which conveys a mood, in a similar fashion to the mood in a Major or Minor scale, although that mood is subjective. Since classical Arabic music is mostly melodic (excludes harmony), the choice of maqam greatly affects the mood of the piece.


Each maqam includes rules that define its melodic development (or sayr in Arabic). These rules describe which notes should be emphasized, how often, and in what order. This means that two maqamat that have the same tonal intervals but where one is a transposed version of the other may be played differently (e.g. maqamat Kurd and Hijaz Kar Kurd, or maqamat Nahawand and Farahfaza).


Each maqam includes rules that define the starting note (tonic, or qarar in Arabic), the ending note (or mustaqarr in Arabic), which in some cases is different to the tonic, and the dominant note (or ghammaz in Arabic). The dominant is the starting note of the second jins (in general the 5th, but sometimes the 4th or 3rd note), and serves as the pivot note during modulation

Listen to the example here at the bottom of the page. It will break down a famous taqasim by a old school master Ryadh al-Sumbati.

http://www.maqamworld.com/modulation.html

adamgood - 7-4-2007 at 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arsene
No, that is completely true, but I was talking about getting used to playing the scales, and cuddly devil mentioned practising composing, so I wasn't refering to taqasim!


At least for Turkish music there shouldn't be much of a distinction between composing and playing taksim when you get to talking about a makam. I don't think it's any different for Arabic Maqamat.

you can "play the scale of Beyati" or you can "play the scale of Ussak" and in the end you are playing the exact same notes, nothing to do the makams in question. What's missing? The characters of each makam, direction, melodic cliches (hmmm can't find a better word, licks?), etc...

similarly, you could "compose using the scale of Beyati", ditto with Ussak but are you really showing either one of the makams? er, i don't know.

In my opinion Rast is the best maqam/makam to begin studying. besides being an incredibly popular makam having tons of repertoire and taksims played by every master and his or her grandmother, its basic scale is similar to the Western major scale yet does use microtones. so right away you are throwing yourself into that world. plus it is related to many other makams for modulating, segah, huzzam, mahur, ussak, hicaz, nihavend, nikriz and is a nice step toward getting into those.

Arsene, the fact that maqam Ajam and the white keys on a piano are similar is best to be thought of as a coincidence. When you start talking about Turkish Acem, that whole theory gets blown out the window. check it out sometime.

adam

arsene - 7-4-2007 at 11:49 AM

Well, what can I say guys, a great man admits when he's wrong!


I've printed nearly every page on maqamworld.com, so I'll get busy with it this summer (yeah!)

SamirCanada - 7-4-2007 at 12:00 PM

its not a bad wrong arsene its a omg! revelation

enjoy your studies and dont get too lost.

:wavey:

arsene - 7-4-2007 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arsene
Well, what can I say guys, a great man admits when he's wrong!


It was very tempting to do the Chevy Chase joke here: "... and I'm not a great man". :mad:

Thanks Samir, whenever I feel I'm getting lost, I'll just stop by Mike's Oud forums... :bounce:

MatthewW - 7-4-2007 at 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheCuddlyDevil
I've recently listened to Naseer Shammah and that has got me into Arabian music. So I tried expanding and downloaded some taqsims from mp3 section in this site.

It's just that the taqsims sound the same to me! Most of them sound like slightly like shredding and I have time differentiating one from the other.
Does anybody else have this problem?



dunno mate, it's a bit like saying all rock music sounds the same, or all classical music sounds the same, or all jazz sounds the same, or all chicago blues sounds the same....maybe on the surface it might all sound the same, but underneath there are levels and subtle (or not so subtle if you are into shredding) differences in each song, structure, maqam, tasqim, etc . just listen closely with the inner ear! :cool:

adamgood - 7-4-2007 at 01:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arsene
I've printed nearly every page on maqamworld.com, so I'll get busy with it this summer (yeah!)


Really nice summer project! If you haven't already, be sure to check out Sami's podcasts...best thing of all is to hear this stuff and even better for someone to break down the maqams for you.

hopefully this link comes through...

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=20...

Masel - 7-4-2007 at 08:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by adamgood
At least for Turkish music there shouldn't be much of a distinction between composing and playing taksim when you get to talking about a makam. I don't think it's any different for Arabic Maqamat.

you can "play the scale of Beyati" or you can "play the scale of Ussak" and in the end you are playing the exact same notes, nothing to do the makams in question. What's missing? The characters of each makam, direction, melodic cliches (hmmm can't find a better word, licks?), etc...

similarly, you could "compose using the scale of Beyati", ditto with Ussak but are you really showing either one of the makams? er, i don't know.

Arsene, the fact that maqam Ajam and the white keys on a piano are similar is best to be thought of as a coincidence. When you start talking about Turkish Acem, that whole theory gets blown out the window. check it out sometime.

adam


I don't know that much about turkish music. Could you explain what you said please? I'm talking about your comment on composing/playing a taqasim, and what you said about ajam, ussak (there is an ushaq in arabic music but I've never ran into it yet).

We've discussed the difference in ornamentation between turkish and arabic music (though not fully, perhaps it's time to bring that thread back, if anyone is interested?...), maybe it's high time we discussed the differences in composing and playing a taqsim.

I've seen older threads saying that the arabs don't pay attention to the sayr but that's only the modern, younger players (who I think are influenced by the turks and try to imitate their speed), I'd give my opinion on these subjects but I need to go to work, I'll continue this some other time.

TheCuddlyDevil - 7-4-2007 at 10:10 PM

I appreciate all the replies.

Brian: I actually know some music theory. Mostly Western, though. I will, however, need to research Ab and G# (I think it may have something with key signatures)

Oh, and I'm Saudi.

In regards to Ajam referring to the white nots on a piano, I don't believe that's a coincedince. Since Ajam in Arabic means "Non-Arabic", so it may have been that the Ajam maqam was imported into Arabic music from the West.

Oh, and I've read about all of maqamworld, by the way, a long time ago.

Thanks for all the replies, though.

adamgood - 7-5-2007 at 01:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheCuddlyDevil
In regards to Ajam referring to the white nots on a piano, I don't believe that's a coincedince. Since Ajam in Arabic means "Non-Arabic", so it may have been that the Ajam maqam was imported into Arabic music from the West.


Acem or Ajam typically and more specifically (and derogatorily) refers to "Persian"

Anyone on the board know about Persian Dastgah scale systems? is there a scale in Persian music, new or old, called "Ajam"?

and here's another question for the Arabic music experts since I don't know anything about it, when did Ajam come into the music? and How? We know that many makams and terms came into the Arabic music from Turkish music, and, vise versa I would assume (although I don't know anything about that). And of course many Turkish makams and terms came into the music via Persian music.

So I don't know where the term Acem or Ajam as a musical term comes from, whether it's Persian, Arabic or Turkish but here's what I do know:

In Turkish music, Acem is a bit different than Arabic Ajam and is not a very common makam. It's a descending makam, (is Ajam?) starts like Ajam (and from the note Acem) but ends something like Beyati or Uşşak (ends in the same place as those makams, on the pitch Dügah).

To make the makam Acem Aşiran which is a much much more common makam in Turkish music (as is Acem Kürdi) the makam begins again and finishes like Acem with the uşşak ending on dügah which then changes to kürdi. then that follows down to karar on the pitch Acem Aşiran which is one octave below the pitch Acem.

And of course there's so much more to the story about Acem Aşiran but that's the rough idea.

So actually on paper the basic scale of Ajam looks more like Acem Aşiran than it does Acem.

Again very roughly, Acem Kürdi begins like Acem, with the uşşak and all and then ends like Kürdi.

What does Arabic Ajam do?

Here's a list of pieces in makam Acem Aşiran:
http://www.adamgood.com/turkish_nota/rep.php?makam=2&sort=form_...

notice that Gazi Giray Han (1554-1607) apparently wrote a Peşrev. and note his birth year and death years. I'd have a hard time believing they were concerning themselves with scales that sounded like western major scales, you know what I mean? That's more an assumption than anything.

So i don't mean to go about proving anything, just putting out ideas...I'm really curious!

adam

adamgood - 7-5-2007 at 01:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Masel
I don't know that much about turkish music. Could you explain what you said please? I'm talking about your comment on composing/playing a taqasim,


Well, the point is that the seyir is going to be the same, whether you're playing taksim or composing a piece.

In a composed piece of Uşşak, Beyati, Rast or Ferahfeza for example, from Hane 1 to the end of the teslim you will be shown the makam. Then rest of the hanes are like Meyan or a time to modulate and show what you can do as a composer.

in a taksim of any of those makams, from the first note until the first karar, that is equal to Hane 1 plus the teslim. And then if you would like to modulate, you can play Meyan and again, show what you can do as a taksimer :)

and in taksim hopefully you are creating melodies that are characteristic of the makam.

arsene - 7-5-2007 at 03:49 AM

From what I've heard - but I may be wrong - Ajam is (and was?) frequently used in Iraqi music... I don't know about Ajam in Persian music though. I'll ask a Persian friend of mine about this.

SamirCanada - 7-5-2007 at 07:39 AM

Ajam of the arabic maqamat is suposed to be refered to as
Ajam Ashiran when it starts on B flat.

Brian Prunka - 7-5-2007 at 12:09 PM

Hey Adam, that's a great breakdown of the relationship between a sama'i and a taqsim.

As far as I understand it, Ajam is different in Arabic music from what you're describing. As a maqam, it's almost always Ajam Ashiran. It's descending, like you describe, but doesn't employ the bayyati/ussak part. (though I suppose it could--it's relatively uncommon and I haven't come across enough examples to say for sure).
I've encountered Ajam on C, G, and D, as well. C and D seem like they're ascending, while G is descending. These are so uncommon though, that it's really speculation about the development.
A lot of the classical repertoire, as you know, is modified versions of Turkish pieces, so a lot can be extrapolated from the Turkish seyir. I think using the term 'sayr' in Arabic is probably just imported from the Turkish to begin with. I'm not sure how widely used it is.

Arabic Ushshaq is like Nahawand on D, but with a whole step leading tone (C). It also uses both the minor and neutral 6th (Bb and B1/2b). The development is Descending/Ascending: it begins emphasizing the 5th and descending through the lower jins, then ascends to the upper jins (using the B1/2b). The notes supporting the lower D are B1/2b and C.
So the scale of Ushshaq is: (B1/2b C) D E F G A Bb (B1/2b) C D
So it's totally different from Turkish Ussak. Marcel Khalife's 'Boulis al Isharah' is basically in maqam ushshaq (though being a pop piece, it's not totally strict in development). Some pieces that are categorized as 'nahawand' are actually ushshaq.

C.D.- So you're Saudi, huh? I guess that's why you like the term 'Arabian' ;)
there are a number of reasons why G# and Ab are different:

1. the notes in a scale are named using successive letter names, so you can't have two notes in a scale with the same name (the exception is synthetic scales like the octatonic scale, which is a product of western equal temperament anyway, making the naming deliberately ambiguous).
Since Huzam already has a G, it can't have a G#. Key signatures merely reflect this practice, but are not the cause of it. This is a convention which creates a useful consistency in music, especially notation.

2. Notes are derived from their relationship to one another. The relationships used are the perfect 5th, the major 3rd, and the octave (which allows us to invert the 5th and the 3rd and get a perfect fourth and a minor 6th). Since Huzam doesn't have an E (major 3rd) or a C# (perfect 5th) it cannot have a G#. Since it does have a C, it can have an Ab (major 3rd). This is a huge oversimplification, but you get the basic idea.
Incidentally, this fact is why it's not a coincidence that Ajam and Major have the same interval relationships. But what I think Adam meant is that you can't just treat Ajam like Major, so it's best to think of them as unrelated.

congratulations on having read maqamworld.

Masel - 7-6-2007 at 12:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by adamgood

Well, the point is that the seyir is going to be the same, whether you're playing taksim or composing a piece.

In a composed piece of Uşşak, Beyati, Rast or Ferahfeza for example, from Hane 1 to the end of the teslim you will be shown the makam. Then rest of the hanes are like Meyan or a time to modulate and show what you can do as a composer.

in a taksim of any of those makams, from the first note until the first karar, that is equal to Hane 1 plus the teslim. And then if you would like to modulate, you can play Meyan and again, show what you can do as a taksimer :)

and in taksim hopefully you are creating melodies that are characteristic of the makam.


Ok a few clarifications before we move on please, what do you mean when you say karar, and meyan? Karar is the tonic no? If so what do you mean "'until the first karar"? The way I was taught is to start a taqsim on the tonic (not absolutely straight away, but that each maqam has its own openings), but the first emphasized note is the tonic. The only exception I know of as of yet is hijaz kar which starts on the octave.

Another question is I am not sure what ascending or descending means in relation to the maqams. I may or may not be following these guidelines without realizing the ascending/descending categorisation but an explanation would be nice please.

Finally, if someone knows of a page explaining all the turkish makams (similar to maqamworld) it would be nice, because sometimes it's very hard for me to follow all the million makams that have similar names but different roles.

P.s. from the little arabic I know, I know that ajam means west, and my teacher explained to me that it did come from europe. Nahawand though, is named after a city in persia.

Keep it going!

adamgood - 7-6-2007 at 02:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaselOk a few clarifications before we move on please, what do you mean when you say karar, and meyan? Karar is the tonic no? If so what do you mean "'until the first karar"? The way I was taught is to start a taqsim on the tonic (not absolutely straight away, but that each maqam has its own openings), but the first emphasized note is the tonic. The only exception I know of as of yet is hijaz kar which starts on the octave.


You could think of the words Karar and tonic being interchangeable but well, don't :)

seriously, Karar, if I look it up in my little Turkish dictionary translates as "decree" which is like a judicial decision or order. Or a final decision. So it carries a bit more weight in my opinion than the word "tonic". The karar will be the final note of a composed piece or the final note of a taksim.

some examples, the Karar for:
Makam Hicaz = the pitch Dügah
Makam Beyati = the pitch Dügah
Makam Muhayyer = Dügah
Makam Hüseyni = Dügah
Makam Rast = the pitch Rast
Makam Hicazkar = Rast
Makam Segah = Segah
Makam Hüzzam = Segah
Makam Saba = Dügah
Makam Eviç = Irak
Makam Bestenigar = Irak
Makam Ferahfeza = Yegah
Makam Sedaragan = Yegah

and on and on...

Regarding maybe why not to use the word tonic (I probably use it often by the way), some compound makams (makams made up of more than one makam) go through a sort of series of makams before the karar. Those makams can imply different tonics along the way. Sedaraban is a good example, at one point in the middle it implies heavily makam nihavend but in the end karar is on the pitch Yegah.

Oh and very important...many makams don't start from the same note as the karar (you mentioned Hicazkar).

Hicaz does, Hüseyni does not, Beyati does not, Rast does, Saba does not really, Ussak does, Segah does, Hüzzam does not, etc...

Then that leads into your next question:
Quote:
Originally posted by MaselAnother question is I am not sure what ascending or descending means in relation to the maqams. I may or may not be following these guidelines without realizing the ascending/descending categorisation but an explanation would be nice please.


You mentioned that Hicazkar starts at the high octave, correct. That's a descending makam.

Re-read my short description in an earlier post about makam Acem Asiran...that's also a descending makam, it will start on the pitch Acem and ends (makes the karar) on the pitch Acem Asiran which happens to be one octave below Acem (the entry note).

The music speaks for itself, here is the great Pesrev by Neyzen Dede Salih Efendi (1818-1888)

http://www.neyzen.com/images/notalar/acemasiran/acemasiran_p_dede_s...

(this is turkish notation, for Arabic that first note would be written Bb)

The last measure of Hane one, the F (dotted quarter note) is THE karar for Acem Asiran. Note that the opening melody in measure one lays heavily around the pitch Acem (the written F note)

perfect example of a descending makam. Hopefully it's clear what i'm writing.
Quote:
Originally posted by MaselFinally, if someone knows of a page explaining all the turkish makams (similar to maqamworld) it would be nice, because sometimes it's very hard for me to follow all the million makams that have similar names but different roles.


It would be amazing, there's nothing that I know of. It's interesting, there's enough interest in it that it would be a success. it's just so much work. I predict within 3 years there will be one in English.

TheCuddlyDevil - 7-6-2007 at 06:35 AM

You are all confusing me with your theory!

But as far the word "qarar", it means "decision". As in to decide on buying an oud. You will buy the oud, as opposed to simply "choosing" to buy an oud. It's a stornger choice. Which led to the word "Istiqrar", meaning "settling" (noun, not verb). "Mustaqarr" means "that which is settled upon".

Basically, I assume "qarar" is the original settling (don't know theory, but I assume the first note played) and the "mustaqarr" is the new settling (I assume it's note you would end on).

My two cents.

damascene_oud - 7-6-2007 at 10:57 AM

Dear Adam,
From my very humble experience, i know and was told by many well known music professors that Turkish maqams, though carrying the same name as Arabic maqams, but they are different in two major aspects:
1-Modulation of the maqam, or what the Turks call it "darace"=darajeh, and thus playing those maqams in Turkish Music is totally different of Arabic Music.
2-Names given to Turkish maqam differ from the same maqam in Arabic music, though they both resemble the same, like for example: maqam Ussak in Turkish Music equals Beyati in Arabic Music, for reasons of difference in modulation and start point of the maqam.

As for names of maqams, it is a fact most of Arabic "and Turkish" maqams carry foreign names rather than arabic onse, with the exception of really arabic invented maqams.

If you review the names of Arabic & Turkish maqams you will see the following:

Both Turkish and Arabic maqams carry Persian names, for example:

Segah, means the Third Degree, or Third Scale.
Rast, means the straight
Nehawend, named after a city in old Persia
Ferahfaza, means more joy
Yegah, means first degree or first scale. And it is what we call it "Ajam"
Dugah, means second degree or second scale.
Neva Eser, means the new track.

This reality enforces itself largely owing to the fact that development of musical instruments was largely done by Persian musicians. For example, "AlFarabi" a Perisan scientist and musician who invented the oriental instrument "Qanoon" as we know it today, and laid the scientific foudnation and rules for this instrument which are still used up till now in playing this instrument.
Writing music in its premitive form, was done also by another Persian scholar called "Abul Faraj Alesfahani", who wrote an encyclopaedia on music, with lyrics and music notes.
Accordingly music in middle ages in the Arab World in general and in the Middle East in partucualr undergone major changes and development based on what the Arabs had taken from their Persian counterparts, and then developed it to suit their own taste of music.
The word "Ajam" or "Acem" are two different pronounciations referring to one word which means Foreign, or in other words, anything but Arabic.
Acem means Persians, equally in ancient times, people from Byzentinium were called "Room" means Romans.
On the other hand, Arabs also invented many maqams that Persians and Turks had taken, developed and played, like: Huzam, Beyati, Hussayni, Ushak "Ussak", Hijaz, Rahat Arwah. On their part, Persians took those arabic maqams and develped them to fit their own taste of music and mentality, and ultimately they came up with new derivatives of those arabic maqams, like:
Hijaz Kar, Kurdili Hijaz Kar, Sozdelek...etc.
this is my point of view of this matter, and please feel free to correct me.

Cheers

adamgood - 7-7-2007 at 02:01 AM

Thanks for the nice post...

I would love to see sometime a list of where each makam comes from, how it evolved, the origin of the name, etc...I think that's really fascinating. In the same way that language study is fascinating. In the end none of those variables really matter but...it's interesting to me, something I probably inherited from my father (an economic historian with an insatiable appetite for research).

I'm pretty sure Kurdilihicazkar is a Turkish invention as the name implies turkish origin: "Hicazkar with the (pitch) Kurdi." So, makam Hicazkar but it uses the note kurdi (hicazkar uses more segah).

Ferahfeza i believe was invented by Dede Efendi (1778-1846).

as far as the more basic makams, I don't know, I can only take yours and other people's word.

My yellow Turkish makam book probably has lots of this information, unfortunately i can't read it.

really cool subject! if anyone knows more, please jump in

adam

MatthewW - 7-7-2007 at 03:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by adamgood
Thanks for the nice post...

I would love to see sometime a list of where each makam comes from, how it evolved, the origin of the name, etc...I think that's really fascinating.






Hi adamgood- I may be wrong, but it seems to me that maqams may have some of their roots in the older musical modes/ragas of India. From Wikipedia: "From the ancient Sanskrit works available, and the several epigraphical inscriptional evidences, the history of classical musical traditions can be traced back to about 2500 years."
You can find similiar usage of microtonal scales/modes in classical Indian music as in Arabic, which I believe scientifically/spiritually are supposed to correspond and reflect the various subtle shades of human emotions, feelings and thought. whew! :)

arsene - 7-7-2007 at 05:52 AM

Hey Matthew, not (only) Indian raga, but probably Mesopotamia... Babylonian music was pretty much the basis for the music of the middle east, some say.

adamgood - 7-7-2007 at 08:52 AM

The Wikipedia article on Persian music is kind of interesting and related to what we're talking about. Not deep but check it out. you'll find some very familiar looking names:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_music

arsene - 7-7-2007 at 09:27 AM

Maqam Ajam was apparently widely used during the Abbassid era in Iraq...

amtaha - 7-7-2007 at 02:59 PM

This is a tangential post. I'm not commenting on the main line of the thread, just TheCuddlyDevil's last note.

qarar does, in one of its meaning, means decision. But it also means "bottom of" in the sense of a pit's or well's bottom. There are also other meanings.

http://qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_H1.asp?Lang=A-E&Sub=%de%d1%c7...

In arabic music, jawab opposes qarar (a difference of a octave, with jawab being higher.)

Of course, jawab means an answer to the question or a gesture.

http://qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_H1.asp?Lang=A-E&Sub=%cc%e6%c7...

I know that there is a further diction, like qarar al-qarar (one octave lower lower than the qarar) and jawab el jawab (one octave higher than al-jawab)

I'm not sure about the linguistic choice of jawab to oppose qarar, but a cautious look into expanded dictionaries would have the answer.

Hamid

p.s. a further tangential - where is Al-Halabi? I really miss his inputs.

neyzen - 7-8-2007 at 08:26 PM

Hi,

This is an interesting thread! I just wanted to post a link to a site which describes Turkish makams.
It is in turkish unfortunately, but there are still some nice things there.

http://www.turkmusikisi.com/nazariyat/default.asp

username: neyzen00
password: password

i hope it is of some use.

Murat

damascene_oud - 7-9-2007 at 08:16 AM

Just a small word to clear the confusion in the wording things of "karar"
In Arabic this word comes in different forms:
1-Noun...means into English "Decision"
2-Adverb of place...means "lowest point" or the "bottom point"

Maqam Ajam or Acem, was mentioned in "Kitab Algahni"="The book of Songs"
the first comprehensive encyclopedia on Arabic Music ever written in the 5th century by "Abul Faraj Al Esfahani"
He mentioned the maqam Ajam as we know it now.
The word Ajam itself always was used to refer to Persians, their culture and even their products. Like for example: The Persian Carpets, are referred to in the whole Arab World as "Sajjad Ajami"="Persian Carpets"
So in short, this word was always used, and is still used to refer to Persia and everything coming from that part of the world.
On the other hand, eveything coming from Europe, was referred to as "Room" {the arabic word reads the same as the word ROOM} and it means everything coming from Europe. Though at those ancient times, there was nothing known as Europe, there was only two foreig counterparts known to Arabs as the neighboring nations, Persia {which was part of the Arabic Empire} and Room which was a neighboring state.
From this i tend more to incline to the theory saying that it is a pure Persian maqam taken by Arabs, but surely believe that in Persian music and equivalent to it is Rast like the Turkish Rast maqam.
And correct me if i'm wrong please.

rebetostar - 7-16-2007 at 09:12 AM

Very interesting discussion, thank you!
I find that in this digital age we are concerned with trying to define concepts very precicely, to find the "one truth" with regards to this musical tradition, when actually there seem to be many truths, some of which contradict each other..and of course that is because the music was and is constantly evolving and changing over time, geography, different languages and cultures.
IMO both the Arabic/Turkish maqams and the ragas of India owe quite a bit to Persian classical music, of course the branches have grown their separate ways. Even Persian music may owe some ideas to the Ancient Greeks. Ideas got around even in ancient times!
I think the Persian mode which at least shares the same intervals as Ajam is: Mahur. Interestingly, the word "Sayr" is also Persian.
Even the word "Maqam" or "Mugam" is claimed by the Uighur people of Western China..although it's meaning there seems more formally structured than in Arabic music.
That's my two cents,
Cheerio!

TheCuddlyDevil - 7-17-2007 at 07:35 AM

Just to add something, the "room" that damscene_oud refers to means "Romans".