Mike's Oud Forums

Nahat for $14.000

Ronny Andersson - 3-17-2004 at 11:28 PM

Expensive:rolleyes:

Adel - 3-18-2004 at 01:56 AM

Their is a Manol oud for sale in Paris.
It's going for 15.000 Euro.
Salamat,
Adel

Mike - 3-18-2004 at 06:27 AM

They don't even have a picture of it!

LOOK

mavrothis - 3-18-2004 at 06:42 AM

Wait, let me sell my car, and we can talk business...hehehe;)

later,

mav

Zulkarnain - 3-18-2004 at 07:27 AM

Hi

What type of car you have bro? Maybe I can buy from you! Let me know some details ok..make, year, mileage, condition etc. and how much it cost to ship it abroad (Malaysia-I give u my full add when we have a deal ok?)



Salam
**still waiting for my first driving licence!

Jameel - 3-18-2004 at 09:09 AM

If the oud keeps gaining in popularity, the chance of owning a nice Nahat will be extremely difficult. Most of the pros use a Nahat. So....are there any builders out there who are making ouds like the Nahat family used to?? I mean, really trying to duplicate the bracing, decoration---every aspect. If I had more time (and it would be lucrative) I would try to duplicate the Nahat style and sound to the best of my ability. To me, they are the nicest ouds Take this one for example. I've posted this before, but not sure if you've all seen it. Hunna Nahat 1928:

mavrothis - 3-18-2004 at 10:01 AM

Hi. I probably already told you this, but D. Rapakousios is making me a Syrian style oud based on the Nahat design, with one soundhole like yours. It's not going to be decorated at all, but the size, proportions, and bracing are based on Nahat. Which Nahat I'm not sure, but I'm very excited to see the result.

It should be ready in about a month...I'll be sure to post pics and sound. I definitely wouldn't mind having some original Nahats, Manols, etc though.

mav

ps-Zul, I don't think I can part with my car just yet, and plus, even if I did, it wouldn't bring in 15 grand.:shrug: oh well:))

Ronny Andersson - 3-18-2004 at 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jameel
If the oud keeps gaining in popularity, the chance of owning a nice Nahat will be extremely difficult. Most of the pros use a Nahat. So....are there any builders out there who are making ouds like the Nahat family used to?? I mean, really trying to duplicate the bracing, decoration---every aspect. If I had more time (and it would be lucrative) I would try to duplicate the Nahat style and sound to the best of my ability. To me, they are the nicest ouds Take this one for example. I've posted this before, but not sure if you've all seen it. Hunna Nahat 1928:


Yes Jameel, I believe to find a Nahat with a reasonable price is not possible and the only option is buy a copy. But then most we have access to a wide range of originals and that seems to be difficult. Also the price for a new built copy will most likely be very high when the lutemaker is probably located in Europe or USA.
I recall that Adel was telling about a copy being built in France and I belive Wolfgang Früh in Paris made a copy.

Adel - 3-18-2004 at 12:14 PM

yes , this is right Ronny,
You could ask Wolfgang how much he charges for a very basic copy of Nahat which I saw not long ago...
He charges 3.200 Euro for a basic copy...
Salamat,
Adel

Adel - 3-18-2004 at 12:38 PM

Another Nahat copy which I saw in the UK made by Luthier Martin Bower in Essex.
You can see this oud on David Parfitt website.
the asking price was 5.000 Euro
Salamat,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-18-2004 at 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Adel
yes , this is right Ronny,
You could ask Wolfgang how much he charges for a very basic copy of Nahat which I saw not long ago...
He charges 3.200 Euro for a basic copy...
Salamat,
Adel


Adel, I can immagine then the price for a decorated one...
I know that Früh is very expensive also with other makers ouds.

mavrothis - 3-18-2004 at 01:47 PM

Dimitris Rapakousios is much more affordable. If you guys like, wait a few weeks and you'll be able to see and hear the oud and decide if you'd like one from him as well.

mav

spyros mesogeia - 3-18-2004 at 04:28 PM

Dear friends,
Dimitris has the elements of his Nahat exactly from a Nahat imported from Syria...We have the luck that mr Yazdjian is from there,so after alot of searching about the instrument, elements and details of it, it is possible Dimitris to make a copy from the original one ....
Many secrets on his Syrian type ouds are based on the original....
I personally can asure you that the price is much lower than the prices that I heard....
I personally own a Syrian type made by Dimitris,and I am very satisfited with this instrument,
If you wish I can send you by mail his pricelist...
Contact me for more details....or If you wish,you can play some of his instruments { I own 2} a syrian type,a turkish type,and now I am waiting a Bashir type,but I have to wait some months.....he works alone and it takes some time.
He is the kind of person that likes to work too much,and speaks just a little....
He wants his instruments to speak for him,and first of all he loves this instrument as we do,even more ,because he give us the happiness to enjoy this instrument by building it,as all the oudmakers all over the world.
It will be my pleasure to visit us and play together with us....
Regards to all:wavey:

spyros mesogeia - 3-18-2004 at 04:36 PM

As for the Manol,
I own a Manol copy decorated with Ivory and turtle skin....
And I can asure you that the price to build an instrument like that is less than 15000 euros,much lower too,and the details are the same,you see we have all the technology to understand the details and make the dream come true...
Maybe you believe that I oversaying some things,but I invite you to play them and tell me your opinions....
I love the quality ouds as you do,and I do many many sacrifices to have them,as we all do,it is our love,our pasion,our bless....
regards
spyros

Nahat in Paris

Al Billings - 3-19-2004 at 09:56 AM

A Good friend of mine who is also an experienced oud player examined and played that Nahat copy at Wolgang's shop a few months ago. He said that it is beautifully constructed, based on a historic Nahat in a Parisian museum. But my friend also reported that as beautiful as that oud is, it's lowest string, bass dokah, lacks any real bass response. My friend said that Wolfgang agreed. Buy now, he might have done further work on the oud and resolved this problem.

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 10:42 AM

Here's a link to the oud Al was telling about Nahat Paris Just write oud in the search box and voila! It's made by Georges Nahat.

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 12:25 PM

OK Al Billings,
I saw that oud and played it.
Yes your friend is right, the bass is not that strong and the top strings were very good...
I see Wolfgang all the time, and I keep saying to him and many oud makers, they make excellent copies of Nahat, but none has acheived the same quality of Nahat when it comes to sound.
Salamat,
Adel

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 12:29 PM

Ronny,
I do know this oud, I like it , but it's in a museum....it should be in an oud player hands....don't you agree?
Salamat,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike
They don't even have a picture of it!

LOOK


They have now LOOKALOOKA

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Adel
Ronny,
I do know this oud, I like it , but it's in a museum....it should be in an oud player hands....don't you agree?
Salamat,
Adel


Adel, I'm one who really find it depressing to see rare quality instruments stored in Museums or on a collectors wall.

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 12:56 PM

Thanks Ronny,
salamat,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 01:03 PM

>I see Wolfgang all the time, and I keep >saying to him and many oud makers, >they make excellent copies of Nahat, but >none has acheived the same quality of >Nahat when it comes to sound.
>Salamat,

I believe a majority of makers have only examined very few Nahat ouds and that
It’s not enough to fully understand an oud maker’s work (not only one here...). Also the soundboards materials on the originals aren’t spruce that the modern replicas have. But is a lucrative market when many players on different levels want the ¨ultimate oud¨ so it is very good that you Adel tell your opinion.

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 01:06 PM

That is very right Ronny.
By the way, how could I contact you?
salamat,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 01:11 PM

Adel, just fire away a mail to masaniello@telia.com

I don't have acces to my e-mail before monday when I'm visiting my parents from today.

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 01:13 PM

What the Nahat familiy deserves is a serious research project.

TruePharaoh21 - 3-19-2004 at 01:29 PM

What's the likelihood that an ordinary oud player gets a Nahat oud? Ordinary in the sense that he's not Abadi el-Johar, or any other famous big-time oud players known around the world. Does anyone have any recordings for any of the Nahats? Perhaps a research idea would be nice to distinguish between the sounds of the different Nahat makers.

I highly doubt I'm going to buy the 14K Nahat oud, just because I don't want to sell my body to science just yet. :D

TP21

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 01:44 PM

TP21, That's why reliable professional musicians like Adel must tell us their opinions about modern copies.

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 01:51 PM

Ist Ronny, your e mail address does not work,
I might be a good musician, but when it comes to computer I am very very bad,
So, can any body please help me to post some of my 1930 Jamil Georgy oud photos to you please.
many thanks,
Salamat,
Adel

TruePharaoh21 - 3-19-2004 at 01:53 PM

Adel, you want to post them here? I can help you out, if you like... do you know how to send them by mail? E-mail me either way... truepharaoh21@hotmail.com I'd be honored to help you out.

TP21

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 01:56 PM

>Ist Ronny, your e mail address does not >work,

hmmm..

>I might be a good musician,

hmmm...


>but when it comes to computer I am >very very bad, :D

Who cares about computers? :airguitar:

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 02:16 PM

Many thanks Ronny and Peter.
Peter did you receive my e mail?
Ok, some of you might find this oud a bit too much, too much Ivory, but I like it and I love the sound of it....
I am sorry I do not have the best oud which represent jamil Georgy's work but this will do...
Salamat,
Adel

mavrothis - 3-19-2004 at 02:37 PM

Hi Adel, how is your Gameel George doing? Are you playing it now?

mav

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 02:41 PM

Very well my friend thank you, How are you Mav?
Salamat,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 02:45 PM

>Ok, some of you might find this oud a bit >too much, too much Ivory, but I like it >and I love the sound of it....

My first oud was a cheap poor Egyptian inlaid one...but I loved the fancy style and I still do. The Bashir is little bit Bahaus...
I lookforward to see it!

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 02:52 PM

The copied text below is from a British museum. I wonder about the maker..

'ud': Arab lute
3 Arabia, ca 1875
5 6 double courses, without frets. Body: 19 ribs; the top rib is a reinforcing strip. Belly: unvarnished pine; the fixed endbar has a top section of strips of rosewood, box and ebony laid longitudinally, with 5 pairs of holes for double courses of strings to be knotted through; fixed to the belly a tortoise-shell plate with shield-shaped ends, between the endbar and the soundhole; also between the plate and the soundhole is a pierced hole. Fingerboard: bone. Nut: ivory. Head: gently curved, angled at ca 130°; 10 lateral pegs (?oak), with ivory knob at the ends. Finial: square; on an ebony block, a convex-sided square of ebony with an ebony pin protruding as a knob. length 780, body 470, width 370, depth 210
6 2 labels inside bearing faded handwriting in Arabic (transcribed but as yet untranslated)
7 the ribs with satinwood stringing between, striped obliquely with rosewood and ebony; a geometric plaque of marquetry within a banded arc of rosewood, box and ivory; the hole between the plate and the soundhole is surrounded with marquetry stringing of ebony and boxwood, with a carved pierced ivory inset, an assymetrical ornament of curlicues embodying a goblet and an Arabic word. Sound-hole: surrounded with a ring of rosewood, box and ebony stringing, and contains an ivory rose carved in an intricate symmetrical design of loops, arcades, hearts and fleurs-de-lys, with a gold (?gilt) centre of 8 scrolls surrounding a green (glass) gem. At top end of body a heart-shaped plate of ivory continuing the design of the fingerboard, Fingerboard: ivory, inlaid with a rosewood inlaid design of running scrolling foliage incorporating what are either flowers or bells with 3 clappers each. Neck: inlaid with boxwood foliate loops like a shepherd's crook in 3 rows separated by 2 lines of marquetry stringing; the same decoration is carried along the back of the head. Inside: a collage scene, in colour, of Europeans at picnic on a hill above an Italianate townscape; a bearded man pours wine for a straw-hatted lady; on lh side a boy with plate of fruit looks on; on rh side an older lady and boy with watering-can; below him a girl with grapes; held in a disembodied hand, a pigeon bears in its beak the date (?1875); another woman with wineglass; at extreme rh side a pageboy with sword and shield bearing an elegant Arabic monogram. Finger-board in ivory inlaid with bone; arabesques on back of neck
10 condition fine
12 S 5

TruePharaoh21 - 3-19-2004 at 04:12 PM

Adel sent me these photos for the Georgy oud. I hope you all enjoy them.

TP21

TruePharaoh21 - 3-19-2004 at 04:13 PM

And....

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 04:14 PM

Thank you peter
salamat
Adel

TruePharaoh21 - 3-19-2004 at 04:15 PM

No problem, Adel. It was my pleasure.

TP21

TruePharaoh21 - 3-19-2004 at 04:18 PM

Oops, I think I posted the Georgy one under the post in the Ouds, Ouds, Ouds post. Here, I'll post it here as well.

TP21

mavrothis - 3-19-2004 at 05:58 PM

TP, I believe these are all pictures of the Gameel George oud.

Looks beautiful, I'm glad to see it's fully restored.

Play it with health!

mav

Nahat

Al Billings - 3-19-2004 at 08:02 PM

Someone should indeed study the Nahat ouds and perhaps uncover the details that make this brand of oud so sought after. But it will be a challenge, with the Nahats flung all over the globe, never mind talking owners into allowing a luthier to remove the tops! In America, a company like C.F. Martin has been building guitars in the same factory for over 100 years and they still have tops and other tonewoods from the turn of the century, so it's relatively easy for an American builder to study them and make a guitar that's very close to the sound of the old Martins. And in the same way that a violin maker needs to see many examples of a great maker's instruments, I would think that an oud maker would need to examine closely numerous ouds before some understanding of their sound qualities and materials can be reproduced. Adel, what do you have to say about this?

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 10:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TruePharaoh21
Oops, I think I posted the Georgy one under the post in the Ouds, Ouds, Ouds post. Here, I'll post it here as well.

TP21


Decorated like a Baroque lute with a plain front to - decorations at the right place. Unusual in my eyes.

Ronny Andersson - 3-19-2004 at 10:48 PM

Adel, Did Jamil Georgy also made more decorated ouds with intarsia on the bowl like the Nahats? It seems that the Egyptian modern style with heavy mother of pearl inlays like the Syrian ones I published, are mostly from the 2nd half of the 20th century.

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 11:36 PM

Yes I agree with you Al billings.
Salamat
Adel

Adel - 3-19-2004 at 11:38 PM

Ronny, most of Jamil Georgy's oud are very plain, I have not seen any oud like this made by Jamil Georgy......
Most Egyptian old ouds which I have seen are very simple ....But Khlil Al Johary used to make ouds with MOP.
Salamat
Adel

Adel - 3-20-2004 at 06:30 AM

Hi Ronny,

Here is a better look at the back with the ivory work. The pickguard and neck is decorated with MOP though too. But for me, just the right amount. I personally prefer simple ouds. Thanks to Mike for helping me learn how to make attachments.

Adel - 3-20-2004 at 06:31 AM

Here is the pickguard:

Adel - 3-20-2004 at 06:33 AM

The shamseyya:

Adel - 3-20-2004 at 06:34 AM

The fingerboard:

Adel - 3-20-2004 at 06:43 AM

The back of the neck:

Adel - 3-20-2004 at 06:44 AM

Now I think you have a better idea of this oud. It is really a piece of art. The oud is all original. In other words, nothing has been changed. I had to have some work done with the roses, but that was about it. Keep in mind this oud is made in 1930, so the face is not as clean as one would like, but for me the sound was too incredible. I had to have this oud. The neck and pegbox is made from ebony and inlaid with ivory. Maybe soon Mike can help me put a sound file.

Multi Kulti - 3-20-2004 at 07:20 AM

Wonderful oud indeed...

but i have another question for you Adel...you own a lot of ouds from important "classical" oud makers...(and not only)...but how do you find your Joseph oud (i dont even know who Joseph is) in compare with the others? In fact im in love with this instrument 3-4 years now since i have listened to it and saw it in the CD with Niebla (the first time i heard you too...)

Nikos

Adel - 3-20-2004 at 07:30 AM

Hello Nikos,
I have many ouds at home, I play the oud, but also I love it as an instrument....
Joseph oud is very good oud, outstanding oud realy... different than Nahat Or Al Leath or Jamil Georgy....
Many thanks for liking my music
salamat,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-20-2004 at 08:31 AM

Adel, I really appreciate the photos and I get nostalgic. This type of ouds confirms that they were built by sensible makers who built for the sound and also the eye - today only the eyes to many times...
An oud of this quality confirms also that is was a special instrument and not an everyday product.
Btw, how does it works with mop on the fingerboard?
I hope that I can take a closer look when I'm going to Paris couple of times during the summer months when I'm visiting relatives to my wife.

mavrothis - 3-20-2004 at 08:35 AM

Adel,

Thanks again for sharing these pictures. I hope we can hear it soon too.

It's funny, but I remember one note you played on it for us in Cairo, the high Sol. It was so clear and brilliant, it's stuck in my head. I don't think I'll ever forget it.

take care,

mav

spyros mesogeia - 3-20-2004 at 10:11 AM

Dear friend Adel,
A very beautifull instrument,a piece of art....congratulations
Regards
Spyros Koliavasilis

Adel - 3-20-2004 at 10:18 AM

Thank you everybody.
Ronny, yes let me know when you are coming to Paris.
Thanks again,
Adel