Mike's Oud Forums

The first lattice braced oud in the world?

Alioud - 2-11-2009 at 02:46 PM

Hi,

So, here is the story. I have been studying the lattice bracing system of Smallman (The guitar maker) for some time. I was indeed intrigued by the system and the theoretical outcome on paper. So, I decided to give it a go.

I have a Maurice Shehata oud which I don't like despite the very high price. The soundbox is made of ebony. Since I am not really a fan of Egyptian made ouds anyway (sorry), I decided to start a the lattice braced oud project.

I started with an excellent master grade western red cedar soundboard with a mositure content of around 5 to 6%. I also decided to change to a floating bridge since, physically speaking, it provides the best acoustics and the least energy dissipation.

I prepared the lattice using adirondack spruce. The bars were no more than 2 mm thick and 2.5 mm high. I wanted to use composite material like carbon fiber or graphite, but I decided to maintain a wooden sound sort of speak.

The surface area of the lattice and the structure itself was tailored to this specific soundboard after extensive Chladni wave testing. This alone took more than 2 weeks!!!

Anyway... I finally finished the oud after a month of work on the soundboard alone! It is a 7 course oud which can be changed easily to a 6 course oud by simply changing the nut and the bridge (I changed the pegbox too)

This is simply the loudest oud I have ever played.. and I played literally hundreds of ouds.. but it is not just about loudness. This oud's sound is simply stunning. Magnificent bases and perfect trebles and a sustain that simply don't compare to anything I played before.

I am currently building 2 more ouds with the same lattice bracing and 1 oud using the Kasha model which I doubt will work, but I am keeping my fingers crossed. The good thing is I do not waste my time on the soundbox, this gives me ample time to concentrate on the soundboard only which is the heart of the oud.

Anyway.. Here is a short sample of the oud sound .. The oud is tuned C-G-B-d-g-c.. Strings are Labella for the top 4 strings and Pyramid lute strings for the lower 2 strings. The clip is shot using a simple Sony cyper shot with very simple sound quality and pick up. No alterations done to the sound at all and I am playing.


http://ifile.it/63jd4fl

Tell me what you think...

katakofka - 2-11-2009 at 03:14 PM

Hi Ali
what is lattice bracing?
can't download the file you posted. Please provide other way to download the file
thanks

Alioud - 2-11-2009 at 03:18 PM

Hi Katakofka,

Click on Request Download Ticket on the top of the page and then you'll get the download file link..

Lattice bracing is a way of bracing the soundboard that was invented by a guitar builder in Australia called Smallman intended for the classical guitar...

This is an example of lattice bracing:
http://www.nicholas-scott-guitars.co.uk/images/img-b.jpg

compared to standard oud bracing:
http://www.khalafoud.com/Personal/Jameel/Images/Oud_Construction/17...

Try downloading the file again... Click on REQUEST DOWNLOAD TICKET first.

katakofka - 2-11-2009 at 03:30 PM

got it. Thanks
it seems that the treble notes are higher in volume as compared to the base note? or it's due to the sound quality?

Alioud - 2-11-2009 at 03:34 PM

I am glad you did.

Actually, in real life, the notes are perfectly equal.. but I guess the small mic in the camera is a very simple mic.

Actually my friends think the bases are the ones that are a bit higher!

katakofka - 2-11-2009 at 03:36 PM

could you post a better sound file? seems interesting yaaaaaa Ali

photo

fadel - 2-11-2009 at 03:43 PM

photo

fadel - 2-11-2009 at 03:44 PM

hi

photo

fadel - 2-11-2009 at 03:45 PM

hi

photo

fadel - 2-11-2009 at 03:46 PM

hi

Alioud - 2-11-2009 at 03:50 PM

I will record something with a professional mic on Friday..

Thank you Fadel for posting the pictures... I am trying to upload your video playing the oud but the connection tonight is bad.. really bad.

Ali

suz_i_dil - 2-12-2009 at 04:58 AM

Hello

thank you for sharing your work, congratulation for it and looking forward for listening to it on your next recording. Innovative and very well made.

I am just wondering something about . Usually brassing cover all the face width, being also glued to side of the bowl.Out of the sound, this bring also to the soundboard enough resistance to string tension, all over is surface.
Lattice brassing doesn't seems to cover the periphery of the soundboard, so doesn't this create a kind of weakness area on the periphery of the soundboard, with the risk to see the wood sink or crack with time ?

Edward Powell - 2-12-2009 at 05:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by suz_i_dil
Hello

thank you for sharing your work, congratulation for it and looking forward for listening to it on your next recording. Innovative and very well made.

I am just wondering something about . Usually brassing cover all the face width, being also glued to side of the bowl.Out of the sound, this bring also to the soundboard enough resistance to string tension, all over is surface.
Lattice brassing doesn't seems to cover the periphery of the soundboard, so doesn't this create a kind of weakness area on the periphery of the soundboard, with the risk to see the wood sink or crack with time ?


"lattice" only refers to the network of cross patterns. Having the bracing not "meet" the sides is only one option - it is not a necessary characteristic of lattice.

Lattice bracing is VERY strong. The reason why it is much thinner around the edges usually is to allow the entire soundboard to resonate all at once and thereby create deep bass frequencies. The areas around the edges are of course naturally very stiff anyway - because they are near the stiff edges. The closer you get to the center the more weak and vulnerable the wood becomes.

- - - -

This is VERY VERY interesting, and something I have also been experimenting with on my double neck fretless guitars...

Can you please post some fotos of your bracing?

...And what exactly was this WAVE testing you did which took 2 weeks??? This is very interesting for me... THANKS

Reda Aouad - 2-12-2009 at 06:29 AM

This is simply an amazing experiment !! EXTREMELY interesting topic ! This is the first time I hear of such a bracing.. when was it invented? And why hasn't it been applied on ouds so far? (correct me if wrong please)
Could you please post pictures of the bracings if you have ?

I cannot judge much on the sound quality from the recording.. but surely the sustain is amazing..
Will be waiting for a better recording :)

Edward Powell - 2-12-2009 at 09:10 AM

This topic is SO fascinating for me, that I am going to jump in again and offer some more of my OPINIONS.

I think that lattice bracing was developed in an effort to make classical guitars more loud. Actually there have been many many great new ideas for new bracing patterns. Lattice is just one of them... and it's great success has lead to it's being used more and more.

The reality is that a guitar or an oud is an extremely 'energy inefficient' machine for producing sound. Something like only 5% or the strings energy gets turned into sound (correct my figures please). So there is A LOT of room for improvement there - and lattice bracing is one of them - whereby according to the physics involved it requires less wood brace mass to achieve the same amount of structural strength... therefore with a lighter soundboard, the resonance will be greater.

Why hasn't it been applied to ouds.......?
Well, the traditional ladder bracing is a very good system also and it is tried and true, and is VERY easy to build.

In my opinion ouds as instrument have already reached their peak in terms of beautiful tone quality (I'm not talking about a $20 oud from Mohamed Ali street!), but in general ouds lack volume and sustain.

Today's oud buying public demands more volume and a rich tone on the first day after purchase. When I was at Faruk's place he used to complain to me that his customers were pressuring him SO much to produce louder ouds that he was forced to make the soundboard thinner and thinner and thinner - something he doesn't like to do because he feels that the oud is too vulnerable as a result.

Faruk is now building special ouds with nomex double soundboards and balsa/carbonfiber bracing... and supposedly the volume has increased as a result. ---maybe one of these days Faruk will try lattice - - - but I highly doubt it because Faruk tunes the braces. The one very cool thing about ladder bracing is that it makes the tuning of individual braces very easy and straight-ahead.

Reda Aouad - 2-12-2009 at 09:42 AM

Edward.. thank you so much for your valuable information :)
What do you mean by 'brace tuning'? How can one tune a brace? Or tune the soundboard to a specific frequency (or range) like Faruk does to give the desired sound quality?

Edward Powell - 2-12-2009 at 01:01 PM

No problem... it is one of my favorite topics.

The soundboard works like a stereo speaker. It resonates at certain pitches and thereby amplifying them. Energy from the strings transfers thru the bridge in the form of vibrations at certain frequencies - these vibrations then enter the soundboard and "search" for "like" frequencies - and when finding them, cause those areas to resonate and thereby amplify the sound of the strings.

So depending on what frequencies are "represented" on the soundboard (via the SB itself and the braces, and the "compound frequencies" which result from the brace and the SB glued together), this will determine the 'colour' of the oud's tone. Ideally we want a balanced tone.

Faruk discovered a math formula whereby he can calculate this compound frequency once he has determined both the brace's frequency and the SB's frequency at the point of gluing. He claims that he can pinpoint this specific pitch. So what he aims for is to "tune" these specific pitches together against eachother and have them spread evenly across the audible spectrum - or to customise by accenting certain frequency regions.

The tuning can be done by tapping and listening for the fundamental. However Faruk has figured out a means to determine the basic "tuning characteristic" of whole blocks of wood at a time... so he is not actually sitting there tapping each individual stick of wood (although originally he did it this way). He method is very highly developed and sophisticated -- these guys don't waste much time. . . and their work is space age accurate.

SamirCanada - 2-12-2009 at 07:10 PM

Dear Alioud,

you asked whether or not this was the first lattice braced oud in world.

I have to let you know that it is not the first time it done.

I know that Saad Al-TAYYAR who is a musical instrument designer/ oud maker/ classical guitar maker etc... has develloped this idea roughly 10 years ago.

Thanks for sharing your project and best of luck in the future.

I would also like to hear a better quality sound file.

Alioud - 2-13-2009 at 01:48 AM

Thank you all for participating and this is turning out to be a very good discussion actually.

Thanks Edward for all the valuable information regarding lattice bracing. Indeed the sides of the soundboard where it meets the bowl is the strongest, yet without struts it would be nearly impossible to fix it to the bowel and that itself would be a weakness. So, I used small pieces of kerfing and it solved the problem well. I did not line the whole bowel with kerfing because I thought it might hinder the vibration of the soundboard. Maybe I am wrong but it worked well. The center of the soundboard is 1.1 mm thick and is very very strong due to the structure of the lattice itself while the sides are 1.5 mm (around 2 cm edge).

Despite the high tension of 7 strings the wood did not sink and there are no sings of stress cracks which is a relief. Currently, 6 strings tuned C to c is a joke to this structure.

I would love to post photos of the bracing, but you would have to give me some time. I am trying to publish my work as a scientific paper because I think I managed to increase the gain from an average of 23 db (The same as the nomex double soundboard) to 31 db. This is where Chladni wave testing came into place. I will surly share the article and the pictures with you very very soon.

Basically, as you know, the soundboard does not all vibrate with each and every note. Certain areas of the soundboard respond to specific notes. Some areas are "dead" spots. My thinking was, if I could find the dead spots and avoid the spots that vibrate with the desired notes, I could achieve the most resonance without sacrificing the integrity of the soundboard. So, I decided to find the Chladni patterns of each note on this specific sounboard using a large amplifier below the soundboard and a computer program to generate each note precisely. The resulting patterns look like this (I use tea leaves to line the patterns)

http://rogerbourland.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/chladni-gu...

Now, the patterns are quite complex and I had to come up with a tailored bracing that would ensure structural integrity, yet does not "hold" the soundboard from vibrating.

So, the idea that came to my mind is simple. If the lattice "cells" are all equal in size and surface area this would cross a lot of important spots on the soundboard. So, I created a variable lattice in which cells have different sizes and different surface areas. The lattice itself might even look like a random child play but it is not.

These wave patterns are also proving VERY useful in the traditional ladder bracing. The only problem is, it wouldn't work on a production scale because it consumes time, but for a hand lutheir who strives for quality it is definitely worth every minute.

I personally do not believe that ANY maker can come up with a mathematical model to predict the behavior of a sum of soundboards and braces. Wood is a living thing, and soundboards from the same tree almost never behave the same. So, in the case of Mr. Turunz I can tell you the key to his ouds is a really thin soundboard with carbon fiber enforced bracing which requires less mass to achieve integrity. Less mass and a thin good quality soundboard is his key, not a special mathematical invention.

I would like to disagree with you when you said that the Oud has reached a peak in sound quality. I think Oud making have not yet reached the hands of serious science-oriented lutheirs. There is a tremendous room for improvement. This craft have been basically a family tradition in the Arab world and Turkey and in this part of the world, science doesn't rule unfortunately. Trial and error do produce good results but it takes a very long time and it seldom improves after finding the first "good" result.



Samir, I never heard of Mr. Al-Tayyar.. but I certainly salute him. I am glad that there are people out there who are willing to challenge the traditions.

I will record a better sound sample of the oud and will certainly post it soon.

Edward Powell - 2-13-2009 at 02:15 AM

Please educate us more about these Chladni patterns... I think this can be very useful for me... I am the kind of luthier you mention who spends 3 -6 months typically on one instrument.

THANKS!

Of course you are right that an oud's tone can also continue to improve! My implied point was that already today, when you have a top quality oud in your hands, you must admit that it already sounds great. [but as you say, why not GREATER:airguitar: ?]

corridoio - 2-13-2009 at 02:46 AM

Hi Edward
one link:
http://www.kwantlen.ca/science/physics/chladni.html
you can find also on youtube some examples
here a pdf with also some other links
Ale.

katakofka - 2-13-2009 at 04:30 AM

Great Job Ali
Where do you publish such kind of work? which journal?
thanks

farukturunz - 2-13-2009 at 04:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Alioud
Maybe I am wrong but it worked well.
********
I personally do not believe that ANY maker can come up with a mathematical model to predict the behavior of a sum of soundboards and braces. Wood is a living thing, and soundboards from the same tree almost never behave the same. So, in the case of Mr. Turunz I can tell you the key to his ouds is a really thin soundboard with carbon fiber enforced bracing which requires less mass to achieve integrity. Less mass and a thin good quality soundboard is his key, not a special mathematical invention.


Many thanks to those contribute to this thread. It is quite interesting. Though I would not make a comment like alioud made while I have a "maybe" in my vocabulary like in his sentence"Maybe I am wrong but it worked well."
From the very beginning I have had a doubt for getting involved in this thread but someone has exceeded stint.

I am sending a picture hereby (part of an analysis made with the ANSYS program) showing the dominant vibrating area by an excitation at the level of the first overtone of A=440) This result was accessed with the specific frequency of the brace I glued to the space in front of the bridge. The specific frequency of that brace was 375.19 Hz.

I am so sorry for having felt obliged to try to prove the accuracy of my method in such a "context"

Edward Powell - 2-13-2009 at 05:40 AM

Faruk Usta!

Your ouds speak (sing, rather) for themselves...
:applause:

PS- I spent almost everyday for 7 months in Faruk's workshop and watch him and his small team create probably 50 ouds or more. Each one was a masterpiece.

farukturunz - 2-13-2009 at 06:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell
Faruk Usta!

Your ouds speak (sing, rather) for themselves...
:applause:

PS- I spent almost everyday for 7 months in Faruk's workshop and watch him and his small team create probably 50 ouds or more. Each one was a masterpiece.


Hi Eddi! I am reading your posts about your very interesting experiences in Egypt.

Although my ouds speak for themselves, some has long started to aim my day by day growing commercial achievement throughout the Arabic market, trying various ways and using all opportunities like here. Why someone says "So, in the case of Mr. Turunz I can tell you the key to his ouds is a really thin soundboard with carbon fiber enforced bracing which requires less mass to achieve integrity. Less mass and a thin good quality soundboard is his key, not a special mathematical invention." Whereas I had not involved to this discussion yet. It was enough for this gentleman to start an assault to my name. Because the only existing factor hitherto had been my name only.;) Go on Mr. Alioud saying " Wood is a living thing, and soundboards from the same tree almost never behave the same." Saying only this and knowing not much about the pertinent sciences and scientific applications, being only aware of the Chladni patterns one should measure his words! I prefer to work using the scientific applications. Human being and all the living creatures are subject to scientific researches. Due to the fact that they are "living" bodies, could scientific determinations -dealing with these- be put aside!

Here are other pictures of the ANSYS analysis. The soundboard thickness is 1,7mm.

The fomenter frequency hereby is 219.845 (almost 220--A3) which is the fundamental frequency of fifth string from down (Kaba Yegah)

farukturunz - 2-13-2009 at 06:10 AM

This oud was a Turkish oud and the resonant areas were designated in accordance with the Turkish tuning range. This picture shows the resonant area under 146.66 Hz (Kaba Rast=Sol) vibration excitation.

Alioud - 2-13-2009 at 06:46 AM

Mr. Faruk,

This thread was never started as a muscle display. I am Ali Al-Ibrahim from Saudi Arabia. I am a Gynecologist and Obstetrician, which means I do not pose any threat to you or to your business!

I, and everyone in this forum are entitled to free speech! and I have not said anything that demeans you or defame you or even imply that your ouds or methods don't work! The fact that I am questioning the Acoustic validity of your claimed method simply means that the available scientific evidence does not support your views and that each and every soundboard is a unique structure that does not behave the same like any other soundboard in the world, just like a thumb print.

I am sorry you felt threatened by our discussion. Take it easy my friend and chill... there is no battle in these pages.

If, on the other hand, you want to start a thread about your displayed acoustic analysis.. I would be more than happy to discuss it on a scientific bases with you.

Alioud - 2-13-2009 at 06:49 AM

Edward,

I will come back to the Chladni patterns and nodes shortly... It is indeed very very interesting and very promising. I am no expert in this.. but I could definitely tell you what I know and what I found.

Katakofka,

There are a few Journals on Acoustics and Vibration.. let's hope it is easier to publish in these compared to medical journals.


Ali

Reda Aouad - 2-13-2009 at 06:58 AM

Mr. Faruk !! This is a great method you're showing. I've seen a video or two on youtube about your scientific method, but they weren't much informative. It would be great if you could detail more about your method and findings.

Are those analyses done before or after tuning the soundboard and braces? And how do you tune them to give a specific feeling or sound quality?

I understand that the pictures show the resonant areas of the soundboard subject to a certain frequency. But what does that mean? Im not questioning you or your method.. Im just trying to understand more. What does it mean if a certain area vibrates more than the other under a certain frequency?

Anyways.. it is truly amazing that someone like you and Mr. Ali have come so far in scientific methods for building ouds. This is a great achievement and will surely be a turning point in the oud building process in the future.

Thanks :)

farukturunz - 2-13-2009 at 07:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Alioud
Mr. Faruk,

This thread was never started as a muscle display. I am Ali Al-Ibrahim from Saudi Arabia. I am a Gynecologist and Obstetrician, which means I do not pose any threat to you or to your business!

I, and everyone in this forum is entitled to free speech! and I have not said anything that demeans you or defame you or even imply that your ouds or methods don't work! The fact that I am questioning the Acoustic validity of your claimed method simply means that the available scientific evidence does not support your views and that each and every soundboard is a unique structure that does not behave the same like any other soundboard in the world, just like a thumb print.

I am sorry you felt threatened by our discussion. Take it easy my friend and chill... there is no battle in these pages.

If, on the other hand, you want to start a thread about your displayed acoustic analysis.. I would be more than happy to discuss it on a scientific bases with you.


I am working on a book and was not eager to discuss any thing dealing with my methods on the Forums.
Every body who has little logic can know that every soundboard is a unique structure that does not behave the same like any other soundboard in the world, just like a thumb print. Likewise every childbirth is a unique case but you apply your scientific knowledge and try to guess the best medical attention grounding on your previous experiences. I am just deriving benefit from some scientific approaches and scientific applications. I am fully aware that without innumerable experiments and experiences I have gained during 25 years of my career I would not know how to extract "something" from these scientific associations between thicknesses, intersections, forces, frequencies and so on...

Some people contributing to some topics in these forums are very often attacks to "scientific" concerns finding something to blind excuse, especially using that typical one " wood is an inhomogeneous material" Bingo! OK then! Lets sweep out those exertions trying to find out a "way" to understand "what is there really in it" or "how it works" because it is a living thing!:buttrock:

farukturunz - 2-13-2009 at 07:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Reda Aouad
Mr. Faruk !!
Are those analyses done before or after tuning the soundboard and braces? And how do you tune them to give a specific feeling or sound quality?
Thanks :)



Dear Reda Aouad,

I am making this analysis with an Engineering program (ANSYS). All the data are loaded to the program and anlysis reports are derived. I am using this program to restore some data. These pictures are of an analysis done depending on the data taken from one already made oud (one of my ouds)
Indeed I am using a frequency meter to tune the braces so I am sure about the frequencies of them. Just one point I am not sure is that if my previsions about the intended vibration areas are correct. Although the sound of the oud has some clues implying some incorrectly done elements on the oud, I must know what they are. This analysis helps me to understand my faults on the construction of a particular oud.
I am not making the ouds only by accrediting to my “knowledge” and experiences but making so to say a cross questioning using this program.

Sorry for not giving some detailed answers to your questions. These answers would be quite large topics and related to the whole system or the philosophy of my method. I am working on a book and arguing all these questions and answers. Accepting that there is no “only true way” in making any product. Ladder type bracing is the most tried one and thus can be classified as “traditional”. My aim is to introduce an instructive and didactic method examining the "ladder type bracing" and a general approach to the vibrating manner of a soundboard. I will discuss these in my book. Best regards.

jaron - 2-13-2009 at 08:15 AM

Hello to my fellow oud lovers.

This discussion makes me a little sad, despite the fascinating material. As it happens I have a career in the sciences as well as being a composer and musician. What I hope will happen on planet Earth is that the sense of fraternity that one can sometimes find within the world of music will have an influence on science, in order to make it more friendly. What is happening in this discussion is the reverse- the world of music is being dragged down.

It's great to experiment with different ideas in how to build better ouds. But in my opinion it is harmful to denigrate other ouds when you do that. You will only make yourself blind to expressions of other people, and that defeats the whole purpose of both music and science.

May I suggest that as a general practice, when someone wants to innovate with an experimental oud face, why not find a damaged oud that needs a new face? Or ask a builder if you can just buy a bowl?

It seems to me that Mr. Turunz has achieved something important. He's fusing tradition and modernity in order to further the cause of music. He has my highest admiration.

I also must say that Mr. Shehata deserves a defense in this conversation. I was a little heartbroken to learn that one of his oud faces was destroyed for this experiment. He gives us a unique sound - and feel - that is beloved by many musicians.

One lovely aspect of the oud world is that it unites a huge range of aesthetics under one tent. In Western Europe the classical guitar and the flamenco guitar are considered entirely different instruments, and yet they are in some ways more similar than Turkish and Egyptian ouds.

Mr. Turunz is applying more math to his work than Mr. Shehata, but that doesn't mean Mr. Turunz is a robot. He is obviously an artist as well. Even Alan Turing, the mathematician who taught us so much about how to use calculation to simulate the world, believed that at some point intuition must play a role.

One other point I want to make is that maximizing volume, resonance, and other qualities is not necessarily the best musical goal. These days you could just amplify the vibrations of the string with a fine pickup and be done with it. The point of the oud face is NOT to be the most efficient amplifier, but to be a subtle interactive system.

Anyway, I think the whole oud community wishes you success, Alioud. Please be open to the idea that you might be able to learn things from Mr. Turunz and Mr. Shehata.

Edward Powell - 2-13-2009 at 01:42 PM

For sure, in the world of professional instrument building, there has always been a lot of mystification. That is one way to get a high price - and to scare people away from the competition. I have been around countless instrument builders in many countries - and my general conclusion is that most of them know very well specifically how to make their own instrument, but have almost no idea about the building other instruments. Therefore it is usually pretty easy to see the mystification in action after a few minutes conversation... Many makers build as they would build furnature. The difference, that you find with the really good builders is that they have developed an intuition and a system for tweeking what needs to be tweeked to get the sound they are looking for.

Truly great builders, in my opinion, go far far beyond that...

...but for the uninitiated, sorting out the genius from the mystification is no easy task.

At the end of the day, if you love the sound - that's all that really matters :bounce:

farukturunz - 2-17-2009 at 02:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by farukturunz

I am sending a picture hereby (part of an analysis made with the ANSYS program) showing the dominant vibrating area by an excitation at the level of the first overtone of A=440) This result was accessed with the specific frequency of the brace I glued to the space in front of the bridge. The specific frequency of that brace was 375.19 Hz.


Here is another picture of the mode in range that shows the behavior of the soundboard none of which the braces were tuned to reach a soundboard vibration on purpose in the range of 695.165 Hz frequency. Please note how the vibrating areas are messy as opposed to those vibrate with the frequency 881.652 Hz. http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?action=attachme...
881.652Hz was a desired frequency (the first overtone of the A4=440Hz) and had been arranged by using a brace whose frequency was assigned as 375.19Hz
No brace was assigned to achieve a modal vibration at 695.165 Hz frequency range. Still there is some vibration at that range but the vibrating areas are not lined up.

These pictures demonstrate that all musical instruments can produce some sound but the characteristics of the sound come into existence as a result of the probability law and by chance some sounds in the sound spectrum of an instrument whose soundboard was not designed properly, may be "good" but not all the sounds have the similar characteristics, consequently the instrument has not balance.:)

Edward Powell - 2-17-2009 at 04:04 AM

Hi Faruk

Wow, it never ceases to amaze me at how progressively systematic and scientific you are in your development of the oud. Thanks to people like you and Alioud this instrument is not only thriving, but even developing...

I think there are many ways and systems for "going beyond" simply "building by the numbers". Many great classical guitar builders for example have developed sophisticated "voicing" techniques by which they sing certain frequencies at he soundboard and feel how it vibrates and reacts. The great archtop guitar builder ( I forget his name ) never once picked up a thickness guage in his life to measure how thick he was carving his tops... he worked totally on feeling the flexibility of the wood with his fingers. [or something like this, according to the legend].

The point is that if you have a system and it works - and that is proven by consistently great sounding instruments again and again and again, as Faruk & Co. obviously have done, then you are really on to something, and best to stick with that! In my opinion.

However it does seem to me that other makers have found different ways to also arrive at a place where they can achieve consistent and excellent results... for example I wonder you Faruk or Alioud has ever heard of the SOUND IS ROUND theory?



This was developed by a guy who discovered that 'peak' of the scalloped guitar braces actually damaged the tone because they are lying in the 'frequency rings' of particular pitches. This guy (also forget his name) build an astonishing career for himself simply by figuring out how to reach deep inside Martin guitars, thru the soundholes with tiny fingerplanes and sanding blocks - and using his SOUND IS ROUND modal became a legend for being able to open the entire range in guitars that had certain blockages (which basically they all do if they are not 'treated').

farukturunz - 2-17-2009 at 05:29 AM

Hi Eddi,

There is no “only true way” in making any product in a good quality. . The last thing I want to do is to get involved in an argument dealing with the falsity of different methods by which good quality was achieved.
Ladder type bracing is the most tried one for bracing the oud soundboards and thus can be classified as “traditional”. Carbon Fiber Composite Soundboard of course has nothing to do with the tradition. May be there is a breaking point of the “tradition” in the “sound”! Thus in the building techniques of the musical instruments. All sort of sound amplifications have already determined the case. Hearing systems are under heavy threat in the modern cities. Our ears need high volume because of being influenced by consistent noise.
Nevertheless, the lattice bracing may be developed in a way suitable for the “traditional” oud sound. Nevermore a mic or any other electronic device may be needed to amplify its sound.
To me the most determining peculiarity of the musical sound is the "tone" We all know that this feature is called "timbre".
Discrimination and gustation aptitudes are object to develop within cultural environments and long historical eras. But often some sudden and critical changes can take place in those aptitudes during subversive periods like today. Music converting to a market product and high volume becoming the first peculiarity expected and wanted from a musical instrument especially for those making live music in music holes and so called disco's. However tone is more important for those playing for recordings. As an oud builder I am trying to be as flexible as I can to be able to make ouds for all different demands coming from people who are either volume oriented or timbre oriented and I am obliged to satisfy them with the ouds I make on their special orders. To fumble in the dark is not for me. I must know what is there in the oud by using those engineering programs and enhance my original "Brace Tuning Method". I am eager to learn from others who are eager to teach me.

jaron - 2-17-2009 at 07:12 AM

Here is the "sound is round" guy:

http://www.vanlingeguitars.com/index.html

Faruk Turunz makes an important point. There is no single best method for making any particular item. Each method requires its own world of expertise and, I believe, intuition.

Edward Powell - 2-17-2009 at 09:28 AM

I think many people misunderstand Faruk's method - or more likely they have completely no idea at all what he is doing. Anyway, it took Faruk quite a lot of explaining and demonstrating to me personally before I could get my brain around it even a little bit.

What seems on the surface to be a rather ridged system of making the SB system tune up to certain frequencies... it might seem that this approach lacks intuition. But what surprised me is that after Faruk has analyzed the timbers he is in fact left with several possibilities of tuning combinations - not just ONE CORRECT ONE, and it is up to his intuition to select which combination he chooses for a particular player.

aytayfun - 2-19-2009 at 05:37 AM

What a fascinating thread.
I'm with you Edward and once again, congragulations for you Faruk Usta.
As I heard from old timers the great " kemence luthier" Baron Baronak asks to his customers as what kind of sound they want. I think we will do it in oud world by help of Faruk Usta.
Not. Baron Baronak is a great kemençe Luthier form the past. As the saying in Turkish Classical Music goes to "Manol's oud and Baron's Kemençe".

Luttgutt - 3-13-2009 at 05:40 AM

Hi all!
I have the feeling and I hope that this was a misunderstanding between Mr. Faruk og Mr. Ali.
This is not the first time a misunderstanding occurs, and will not be the last one :-)

I am just glad I live in a time were oud-building is having a golden age!
I still remember when I learned oud and had my first consert (in Gøthe institut, 30 years ago :-). Back then it was almost impossible to bye a good oud! Remember guys?!
And the "good" ouds we had those days, were nothing compared to what Mr. Faruk, Mr. Jameel, Mr. Matta, Mr. Ali(and many more) produce today!
I still have my Ahmad Naji Almasri oud (anyone remembers him?) one of the best oud makers in Lebanon in the 60's and 70's. And I remember how much I loved that oud. But I have to be honest and say that ouds made by todays master Luthiers are much better.
Cheers for oud technology and perfection:applause:

P.S. It is grate of you Mr. Turunz that you are writing a book and spreding your knowledge. We are all thanksfull. :bowdown: I never owned a oud by you, and deeply hope I will one day.

katakofka - 3-13-2009 at 06:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Luttgutt

I still have my Ahmad Naji Almasri oud (anyone remembers him?) one of the best oud makers in Lebanon in the 60's and 70's. .


Ahmad Naji almasri !! I have a 1981 bouzouk made by him and fixed in 1990 by Bahaa mjaiis.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7778#pid489...
you can see it in the link above.

Luttgutt - 3-13-2009 at 06:52 AM

Thanks for the link Katakofka!
I have 2 bouzouk made by him. Beautifull peaces. He was a grate bouzouk player too. Too bad for him Matar M. took the show!
Here is a (bad) picture of my oud that is made by him.
Sorry for the bad quality, this was taken with mobil phone camera (the only camera I have :-)

katakofka - 3-13-2009 at 07:20 AM

Lutgutt: is it possible to see those bouzouks?
thanks

Luttgutt - 3-13-2009 at 11:23 AM

Well of course, Katakofka!
I'll borrow a camera over the weekwend and post some pictures (I think the quality on my Ahmad Naji Almasri oud was so bad that the oud came out very poor :( And I don't want my lovely bouzouk to suffer the same :)
P.S. I have one of them here. The other one is back home, so you'll have to wait to the summer to see the that :-)
Have a nice weekend

theodoropoulos - 3-13-2009 at 11:36 AM

My Dear Mr.Faruk ,
we prefer learning from you rather trying to convience anybody that he has no idea about lutherie.
we all respect you and i personally believe that you are the top oud maker nowadays...

dont waste your time..just make usefull dialogs....

with respcect ,
Dimitris Theodoropoulos

Edward Powell - 3-13-2009 at 12:09 PM

I think Faruk's ouds are the best, and consistently the best I have ever hear. But there is much more to Faruk's oud than just great sound -- the construction is impecible, and to this end there is an unsung HERO lurking in the background--- SWAT, Faruk's partner also deserves a HUGE HUGE HUGE amount of credit for advancing the art of oud making.

He is also an enormously warm-hearted and generous person (just like Faruk... and the others in his small team).

theodoropoulos - 5-18-2009 at 12:12 PM

ALI OUD I JUST SAW YOUR RUDE POST IN U2U!!
DONT YOU EVER TALK TO ME LIKE THAT !
YOU ARE SO <b>hug</b>ING RUDE!!
LIKE A GREEK PERSON AS YOU SAY A BIG
F**** OFF!!!!!

Mr Luttgutt ; excuse me please.

khalil - 5-20-2009 at 11:46 AM

Mr Luttgutt.excuse me please.
can you please resize your photo joined above.
it widen all the page so as to make reading difficult. thanks a lot...
with my respect.
regards and thanks again.

Ahmad Naji Almasri

ExtreamTarab - 5-23-2009 at 10:06 PM

Quote:

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt
I still have my Ahmad Naji Almasri oud (anyone remembers him?) one of the best oud makers in Lebanon in the 60's and 70's. .


Quote:

Quote: Originally posted by katakofka
Ahmad Naji almasri !! I have a 1981 bouzouk made by him and fixed in 1990 by Bahaa mjaiis.


Ahmad Naji Almasri is the uncle of my oud teacher,Nazih El-Masri. Mr. Nazih has 2 bouzok's made by his uncle, they sound amazing and he's a really great bouzok player, On top of playing the oud as well.
Luttgutt I really hope to you got the camera so you can put pictures of your bouzok, and a good quality picture of AlMasri oud would be nice as well.

I have uploaded a sound sample of him playing bouzok in this link
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9172#pid613...

hope you like it.
Regards,
Ibrahim