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abc123xyz
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Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  |
Which is particularly remarkable since it has nothing whatever to do with sarod right hand technique. Not only do they misidentify the technique,
they mispronounce sarod to rhyme with clod and plod instead of road and mode.
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Really nothing? I've never played the sarod or guitar myself, but the tremolo certainly looks and sounds much the same to me.
Are you saying only that sarod technique has nothing to do with what guitarists call "sarod picking", or that it has nothing to do with oud tremolo
either?
David
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abc123xyz
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher |
Starting with up works well for finger tremolo because the stronger stroke is in/up and the weaker stroke is out/down. With a plectrum the up stroke
fights gravity but if preceded by a down stroke one gets the benefit of the sproing effect as the hand automatically springs up to begin a new down
stroke. |
I do start with a downstroke myself, and the downstroke is my stronger stroke, as I press my thumb to my index finger to reinforce it and don't
normally move it separate of the whole hand. I also use my forearm to impel the motion, not a "pinching" or "come-here" motion of the index.
I just didn't give any thought, as I say, to which of clockwise and counterclockwise one would start with to make a down stroke :·)
I suppose it's possible that what I do would be incorrect if using a plectrum (?).
David
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AhmedT
Oud Lover
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Hi There,
Alot of the responses and demonstrations on this thread are spot on. I have read such explanations on forums and from live teachers many times but
kept on struggling with Tremelo simply because no one seems to convey how to actually practice it, what to expect, and how to actually gauge your
progress.
I have struggled for many months with this (I came to Oud from Guitar as many people here) and Tremelo, to me, was the defining oud sound (I still
think that, but I’ve also realized there’s much more to the sound than just that :-)). Here’s my take on the subject after having made decent
progress over the last 2 months.
Some theory before we go to practice:
- Tremelo is 99% wrist movement. If your forearm is moving be suspicious.
- The wrist movement we’re after is not forceful its more like the wrist (with the risha) is falling using only gravity then bouncing up again after
hitting an invisible trampoline.
- This is a fine motor skill that will require a lot of practice before it becomes effortless and without any tension.
- The perfect tremolo is even. You will never hear the sound you’re expecting until the strokes are evenly tempered AND timed. This too shall take
time. Patience is a good thing in this endeavour :-D
Here’s what finally worked for me after a lot of frustration:
- The basic building block of tremolo is a down/up stroke. If you cannot execute this perfectly 10 out 10 times; no tremolo for you.
- To break it down further the up/down stroke is a down followed by an up stroke so lets start with the down stroke!
- Your down stroke should fall from slightly above the string and rest on the the string below. Remember that you wrist/risha is falling using
gravity not force.
- What you’re looking for is a relaxed stroke, a comfortable rest on the string below, and above all an even sound (i.e. it should sound exactly
the same every time - remember this is music and we should be using our ear as a guide to how we sound - easier said than done :-)).
- The upstroke should be the mirror image of the downstroke as if your risha bounced back from its resting place on the string below the one you just
struck.
- You will notice that the upstroke will not sound exactly the same as the downstrock due to the fact that we have double strings + the angle of
stroke. The downstroke hits at a different angle than the up stroke. This is why the downstroke is the heart of the oud sound (my opinion!).
PRACTICE TIPS:
- Perform the motion described above on the downstroke and up stroke.
- Watch your wrist, hand, and arm. Be attentive. Repetition without attentiveness is a waste of time (I wasted ALOT of time with this one so I’m
really sour about it  ).
- Be VERY VERY SLOW. Cannot stress this enough. Let your brain soak up the motion in slow motion. You are programming your brain.
- Practice in front of a mirror and be critical of your motion - Focus Focus Focus and ask these questions to yourself:
- Is there any tension in my body ANYWHERE? If so, try to focus on the tension in the next stroke and relax it.
- Can I see in the mirror that my motion is the same every time? If not, ask yourself; what is different and why? What sounds better. Analyze
analyze analyze.
- Repeat……
- Once you get the basic down/up stroke solid, consistent, and sounding confident you’ve done 80% of the work. The rest is speed. The reason the
first step is important is that if you speed up sloppy down/up you get choppy, uneven, tense tremolo that you can struggle with for months. Don’t do
that. I did it and spent much more time than I wanted to :-).
- How to speed up:
- Use a Metronome. No way around this.
- Begin with something slow. Say 40 (or even 30 or lower if you can’t feel comfortable).
- Do an down/up stroke per beat.
- DO NOT use your left hand at all yet. Just open strings.
- Don’t practice on the lowest string (first from the floor) as it doesn’t have a string below it and is slightly more challenging if your
motion is not yet automatic.
- Use a mirror and perform the same critical routine described above.
- Do not increase the tempo until you can do the down/up flawlessly for at least 1 minute (I recommend 3 minutes!).
- Increase the tempo when you pass the 1 min/ 3 min test :-).
- At about 80 bpm, go back to 40 bpm and instead of down/up per beat; do down/up down/up per beat. (4 strokes per beat).
- get to 80 bpm again with 4 strokes per beat.
- Go back to 40 and do 6 strokes per beat and repeat the progression till you go to 80
- drop back to 40 and do 8 strokes per beat.
- You should know what to do next from here :-D.
- Do this every day for 15 minutes (if you want to do more absolutely go for it, but remember to take rest often. The kind of focus I’m talking
about here will make you very tired after 15 minutes!).
- When you begin to feel more confident begin to use your left hand (i.e. practice tremolo on maqams and perform ascending and descending
patterns).
- Some additional challenges you will meet on the way:
- Tremelo across adjacent strings continuously.
- Use the same practice principles above and slow down. Isolate the motion and problems and gradually increase speed.
- Tremelo across non adjacent strings (i.e. hitting a low C note then high C - you hear this on records and it sounds as if they both happen at the
same time - its just REALLY fast motion that can be mastered in time!).
- Tremelo bursts
- Will come in time and after you master the movement. Starting and stoping your wrist will be much easier and natural
- Some final words:
- Practicing sloppy sounding strokes in our zeal to get better and faster is essentially practicing our mistakes. You will become great at
consistently making your mistakes. Don’t do that :-).
- Tension in your body (this requires focus to notice) is a sign of trouble. It usually means you’re doing something faster than you should. Slow
down and watch for tension. Resolve your tension before moving forward.
- This worked for me and took about 2 months with practice every day (I did skip some days to be honest!).
- As you get better at this, you should focus more and more on economy of motion. Wide/far flung movements work against speed. So if you find that
you are moving to far from the strings with your risha, work on shortening distances. A few millimetres of savings add up to some serious millage in
your Oud playing life :-).
- To express yourself on a musical instrument thought has to be completely vanquished. I had a guitar teacher that used to repeat an Allan Watts
quote “When we lose our minds we come to our senses”. This can only happen through diligent practice so that we are not thinking about what our
fingers or wrists are doing. Think of it like speech. There’s no gap between your intent to express yourself and words coming out of your mouth.
That’s what we should aim for as we practice. Like a child learning to talk, this takes time and practice.
- I wrote this because I wished I could find it somewhere when I was looking. There are FAR better players on this forum than me. I hope they can
refine this and correct it for the sake of humanity  .
Thank you for reading all of my babbling. I hope it helps someone.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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| Quote: Originally posted by abc123xyz | | Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher |
Which is particularly remarkable since it has nothing whatever to do with sarod right hand technique. Not only do they misidentify the technique,
they mispronounce sarod to rhyme with clod and plod instead of road and mode.
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Really nothing? I've never played the sarod or guitar myself, but the tremolo certainly looks and sounds much the same to me.
Are you saying only that sarod technique has nothing to do with what guitarists call "sarod picking", or that it has nothing to do with oud tremolo
either?
David
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what I meant was that what a few youtube guitarists are pleased to call "sah-rodd" and "saaah road" picking is not characteristic of sarode playing.
A down followed an up is of course typical of all string instruments that are played with a plectrum. The sarode is no exception. Other than down and
up there is no connection between the misidentified youtube guitar technique and sarode technique. Sarode players DO NOT move their thumb and index
finger when picking down and up. They do not hold the pick at an angle, at least not at the angle that the misinformed guitarists claim they do. They
NEVER point the thumb downwards. Basic sarode right hand is explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCOKzfyRtxg
There is no tremolo in sarod music.
Sarod music does include some rapid down/up but it is not tremolo. Tremolo is the art of making a short sustain instrument play long notes. Also the
sound of the tremolo is itself attractive and decorative. Tremolo in oud phrases is typically used in combination with plain strokes. There is
nothing like that in north indian classical raga instrumental music, including sarode. Most sarod picking is patterned and involves cross rhythms and
combinations of two and three. Tremolo is not part of the North Indian classical music aesthetic (although the increasing popularity of the santur in
India may change that one day). When sarode players play rapid down and up motions it is to play very fast music. The exactness and evenness of the
rhythm is the point. In Indian raga music rapid down up is not done in slow music as tremolo often is in other musics, including on oud. In tremolo
on string instruments the more it sounds like a blur ( an artful blur, not a sloppy blur) the more successful it is. In North Indian string technique
the more you can hear the separateness of the strokes the more successful it is, and it is always done for rhythmic effect.
Pointing the thumb down and moving the thumb and index up and down during rapid picking is also not a part of oud technique. Not of tremolo or of
anything else.
So to answer your question, I meant both choices.
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Jody Stecher
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AhmedT, there is so much good sense and insight in what you have written. I disagree with 2% of it but it's not important. Well done!
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abc123xyz
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Oh, that's Apu Agarwal, is it not? :·D
We know him from the Chandrakantha forum :·)
David
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AhmedT
Oud Lover
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | | AhmedT, there is so much good sense and insight in what you have written. I disagree with 2% of it but it's not important. Well done!
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Glad its useful :-). In general I think there's a lot to be said about practicing a musical instrument regardless of the technique in question or the
instrument itself. Based on my own experience and watching other students I think most of us waste 99% of our practice time :-).
Concepts like focus, attention to movement, & critical analysis of everything are very difficult to grasp by so many people (myself included for a
long time), yet some just have it.... It comes naturally to them.
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nard
Oud Lover
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Registered: 7-20-2013
Location: Oakland, CA
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Thank you!
Dear AhmedT,
Thank you for this meticulous detail. You are correct - a lot of people had great advice about what to focus on (motions, relaxing, etc.) but this is
the most specific advice on practical method I have received. It sounds to me a lot like the exercise Brian Prunka has posted on his website, but
spelled out in more detail for people having trouble with tremolo.
What is especially helpful is the advice to slow down and return to fundamentals, focusing on minute motions and tensions - obviously frantic
flagellation hasn't worked for me so I'm hoping this will.
One thing that has always surprised me is the notion that down stroke must rest on the string below it -- in practice, when folks are actually playing
songs and performing tremolo, does the reesha actually hit the lower course every single down stroke? Or is this just a learning device?
Thanks so much for your insights!
Best wishes,
nard
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nard
Oud Lover
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | On the plus side
a) it looks like you are using less arm than appeared to be the case in the previous video.
b) compared to the previous video, fewer pairs of strings are out of tune.
On the minus side
a) you are not doing the same timing as Samir.
b) you are beginning your tremolo with an upstroke. Practice as slowly as you need to go so that your mind can keep track of what is up and what is
down and so that you are sure you are starting with down.
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Dear Jody,
Thank you for watching the video and providing me with these pointers.
Just a point of clarification to make sure I understand - on Brian Prunka's website, the tremolo drill begins with two down strokes - the first on a
longer note, the second on a note of 1/2 length that then becomes a series of down/up strokes. When you say start on the down stroke, do you mean the
very first note or both the first and second note? Maybe I'm going in circles in my head now - but should there be 2 downstrokes before the first up
or just 1?
I have to listen to Samir's video a little more closely to correct my timing. Thanks for pointing this out.
With respect to tuning - you made a comment about this earlier and I should have taken you up on the offer to probe further. I use a Snark SN-2 tuner
(not because I'm a guitarist, oud is my first instrument) and I try to tune both strings to the same point on the tuner. Is this frowned upon? Should
I be using another method? And -- is the reason you point it out because tuning affects playability (not just sound) of the tremolo?
Thank you!
nard
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Nard, what i meant is that when playing tremolo —in any context —not just in a specific exercise— always begin with a downstroke. The tremolo
itself may be preceded by anything. A down, an up, twenty seven downstrokes, forty three sideways strokes, whatever. If you begin your tremolo with an
upstroke you are beginning by fighting gravity. If an upstroke is preceded by a downstroke it gets help from a rebound affect. So it's better to start
tremolo with a down stroke. I was not talking about any particular drill or exercise. I was not talking about any strokes that precede tremolo in a
drill, exercise, or taqsim, or musical composition.
Tuners do have problems, as I have said before on this forum. But the problem here is not the tuner. The problem is that you are *not* tuning each
member of each pair to the tuner. Some of your double courses are tuned in unison. Some are not. It is not enough to use the eyes to tune. you must
use the ears.
Tuning well does not affect playability. It affects listenablity.
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Brian Prunka
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This exercise?
Jeez, I didn't even realize that that stuff was still up there.
Anyway, while those are picking exercises which are helpful for developing tremolo, none of them are actually tremolo themselves—they're just
preparation for tremolo. Actual tremolo is all down-up as Jody notes.
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SamirCanada
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I will give you my trick for tuning the oud, tune the first string of each pair with your tuner, tune the other string of that pair by ear until the
sounds are equal to your ear.
Also, my video is just a simple warm up exercise I sometimes do before I play. its more important to develop a structure than to do ramdom tremolos,
so if say you decide you want to precede your tremolo in your exercise with 2 downstrokes do that, if you decide its going to be 2 up and down strokes
then start your tremolo thats fine too. the important part is that you have control of the exercise and that you are thinking what you are playing in
a structured way.
even better than those exercises I find is to practice certain pieces of the classical repertoire and imitate the professional players.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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oudistcamp
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A piece to practise tremolo with
Al Bahaara - Marcel Khalife
You must use the metronome when studying tremelo with this piece.
Begin the learning process very slowly so the tremelo notes are longer and you can comfortably fit in more notes.
My teacher used this piece to build my tremelo 2 years ago, and I still go back to it each month to see where I stand.
You can choose to play just a few of the tremelo notes when you are starting off, and add a few more each week. After a few months, you can add on
even more techniques associated with tremelos.
While practising, don't forget: heed all the wonderful advise above from forum members.
[file]33315[/file]
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Julia Germany
Oud Admirer
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Hi all, I discovered this thread today when searching the web for advice on tremolo. I was pretty desparate, since I thought I should be able to
perform a perfect tremolo by now (have started playing the Oud 9 months ago) and it just doesn't turn out, whatever I try. I was about to give up.
Thanks to everyone here for all the valuable advice, now I know that I am not the only one having problems with the tremolo, and I am really motivated
to keep trying. THANKS!
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MoH
Oud Maniac
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Fellow Beginner Tips
| Quote: Originally posted by Julia Germany | Hi all, I discovered this thread today when searching the web for advice on tremolo. I was pretty desparate, since I thought I should be able to
perform a perfect tremolo by now (have started playing the Oud 9 months ago) and it just doesn't turn out, whatever I try. I was about to give up.
Thanks to everyone here for all the valuable advice, now I know that I am not the only one having problems with the tremolo, and I am really motivated
to keep trying. THANKS! |
I started playing oud around the same time you did, and I also still have some issues with tremolo. Here's some things I've learned, some of which
people have already mentioned:
Tremolo comes with consistent practice. No matter how bad it may seem now, it will definitely improve over time if you try it every day. For me, if I
haven't practiced oud a couple days, it takes me a long time to get my tremolo "back".
Try practicing tremolo close to the bridge, then move out farther as you get comfortable. It may not sound good, since the strings are very rigid in
that area, but you'll probably have an easier time getting a clean tremolo there.
Also, I think tremolo is easiest to do on the nylon g string, and it becomes easier in my opinion if you play a note like b flat on it since it
"tightens" the string a little. Of course, you should eventually be able to play tremolo on any open or fingered string, but I think that's a good
place to start.
Of course, I'm a beginner like you, so maybe this is all wrong, but good luck!
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