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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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This oud was a Turkish oud and the resonant areas were designated in accordance with the Turkish tuning range. This picture shows the resonant area
under 146.66 Hz (Kaba Rast=Sol) vibration excitation.
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Alioud
Oud Maniac
Posts: 93
Registered: 9-3-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Extremely Happy!
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Mr. Faruk,
This thread was never started as a muscle display. I am Ali Al-Ibrahim from Saudi Arabia. I am a Gynecologist and Obstetrician, which means I do not
pose any threat to you or to your business!
I, and everyone in this forum are entitled to free speech! and I have not said anything that demeans you or defame you or even imply that your ouds or
methods don't work! The fact that I am questioning the Acoustic validity of your claimed method simply means that the available scientific evidence
does not support your views and that each and every soundboard is a unique structure that does not behave the same like any other soundboard in the
world, just like a thumb print.
I am sorry you felt threatened by our discussion. Take it easy my friend and chill... there is no battle in these pages.
If, on the other hand, you want to start a thread about your displayed acoustic analysis.. I would be more than happy to discuss it on a scientific
bases with you.
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Alioud
Oud Maniac
Posts: 93
Registered: 9-3-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Extremely Happy!
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Edward,
I will come back to the Chladni patterns and nodes shortly... It is indeed very very interesting and very promising. I am no expert in this.. but I
could definitely tell you what I know and what I found.
Katakofka,
There are a few Journals on Acoustics and Vibration.. let's hope it is easier to publish in these compared to medical journals.
Ali
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Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Mr. Faruk !! This is a great method you're showing. I've seen a video or two on youtube about your scientific method, but they weren't much
informative. It would be great if you could detail more about your method and findings.
Are those analyses done before or after tuning the soundboard and braces? And how do you tune them to give a specific feeling or sound quality?
I understand that the pictures show the resonant areas of the soundboard subject to a certain frequency. But what does that mean? Im not questioning
you or your method.. Im just trying to understand more. What does it mean if a certain area vibrates more than the other under a certain frequency?
Anyways.. it is truly amazing that someone like you and Mr. Ali have come so far in scientific methods for building ouds. This is a great achievement
and will surely be a turning point in the oud building process in the future.
Thanks 
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Alioud
Mr. Faruk,
This thread was never started as a muscle display. I am Ali Al-Ibrahim from Saudi Arabia. I am a Gynecologist and Obstetrician, which means I do not
pose any threat to you or to your business!
I, and everyone in this forum is entitled to free speech! and I have not said anything that demeans you or defame you or even imply that your ouds or
methods don't work! The fact that I am questioning the Acoustic validity of your claimed method simply means that the available scientific evidence
does not support your views and that each and every soundboard is a unique structure that does not behave the same like any other soundboard in the
world, just like a thumb print.
I am sorry you felt threatened by our discussion. Take it easy my friend and chill... there is no battle in these pages.
If, on the other hand, you want to start a thread about your displayed acoustic analysis.. I would be more than happy to discuss it on a scientific
bases with you. |
I am working on a book and was not eager to discuss any thing dealing with my methods on the Forums.
Every body who has little logic can know that every soundboard is a unique structure that does not behave the same like any other soundboard in
the world, just like a thumb print. Likewise every childbirth is a unique case but you apply your scientific knowledge and try to guess the best
medical attention grounding on your previous experiences. I am just deriving benefit from some scientific approaches and scientific applications. I am
fully aware that without innumerable experiments and experiences I have gained during 25 years of my career I would not know how to extract
"something" from these scientific associations between thicknesses, intersections, forces, frequencies and so on...
Some people contributing to some topics in these forums are very often attacks to "scientific" concerns finding something to blind excuse, especially
using that typical one " wood is an inhomogeneous material" Bingo! OK then! Lets sweep out those exertions trying to find out a "way" to understand
"what is there really in it" or "how it works" because it is a living thing!
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Reda Aouad
Mr. Faruk !!
Are those analyses done before or after tuning the soundboard and braces? And how do you tune them to give a specific feeling or sound quality?
Thanks |
Dear Reda Aouad,
I am making this analysis with an Engineering program (ANSYS). All the data are loaded to the program and anlysis reports are derived. I am using this
program to restore some data. These pictures are of an analysis done depending on the data taken from one already made oud (one of my ouds)
Indeed I am using a frequency meter to tune the braces so I am sure about the frequencies of them. Just one point I am not sure is that if my
previsions about the intended vibration areas are correct. Although the sound of the oud has some clues implying some incorrectly done elements on the
oud, I must know what they are. This analysis helps me to understand my faults on the construction of a particular oud.
I am not making the ouds only by accrediting to my “knowledge” and experiences but making so to say a cross questioning using this program.
Sorry for not giving some detailed answers to your questions. These answers would be quite large topics and related to the whole system or the
philosophy of my method. I am working on a book and arguing all these questions and answers. Accepting that there is no “only true way” in making
any product. Ladder type bracing is the most tried one and thus can be classified as “traditional”. My aim is to introduce an instructive and
didactic method examining the "ladder type bracing" and a general approach to the vibrating manner of a soundboard. I will discuss these in my book.
Best regards.
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jaron
Oud Maniac
Posts: 84
Registered: 6-14-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hello to my fellow oud lovers.
This discussion makes me a little sad, despite the fascinating material. As it happens I have a career in the sciences as well as being a composer
and musician. What I hope will happen on planet Earth is that the sense of fraternity that one can sometimes find within the world of music will have
an influence on science, in order to make it more friendly. What is happening in this discussion is the reverse- the world of music is being dragged
down.
It's great to experiment with different ideas in how to build better ouds. But in my opinion it is harmful to denigrate other ouds when you do that.
You will only make yourself blind to expressions of other people, and that defeats the whole purpose of both music and science.
May I suggest that as a general practice, when someone wants to innovate with an experimental oud face, why not find a damaged oud that needs a new
face? Or ask a builder if you can just buy a bowl?
It seems to me that Mr. Turunz has achieved something important. He's fusing tradition and modernity in order to further the cause of music. He has
my highest admiration.
I also must say that Mr. Shehata deserves a defense in this conversation. I was a little heartbroken to learn that one of his oud faces was destroyed
for this experiment. He gives us a unique sound - and feel - that is beloved by many musicians.
One lovely aspect of the oud world is that it unites a huge range of aesthetics under one tent. In Western Europe the classical guitar and the
flamenco guitar are considered entirely different instruments, and yet they are in some ways more similar than Turkish and Egyptian ouds.
Mr. Turunz is applying more math to his work than Mr. Shehata, but that doesn't mean Mr. Turunz is a robot. He is obviously an artist as well. Even
Alan Turing, the mathematician who taught us so much about how to use calculation to simulate the world, believed that at some point intuition must
play a role.
One other point I want to make is that maximizing volume, resonance, and other qualities is not necessarily the best musical goal. These days you
could just amplify the vibrations of the string with a fine pickup and be done with it. The point of the oud face is NOT to be the most efficient
amplifier, but to be a subtle interactive system.
Anyway, I think the whole oud community wishes you success, Alioud. Please be open to the idea that you might be able to learn things from Mr. Turunz
and Mr. Shehata.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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For sure, in the world of professional instrument building, there has always been a lot of mystification. That is one way to get a high price - and to
scare people away from the competition. I have been around countless instrument builders in many countries - and my general conclusion is that most of
them know very well specifically how to make their own instrument, but have almost no idea about the building other instruments. Therefore it is
usually pretty easy to see the mystification in action after a few minutes conversation... Many makers build as they would build furnature. The
difference, that you find with the really good builders is that they have developed an intuition and a system for tweeking what needs to be tweeked to
get the sound they are looking for.
Truly great builders, in my opinion, go far far beyond that...
...but for the uninitiated, sorting out the genius from the mystification is no easy task.
At the end of the day, if you love the sound - that's all that really matters 
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: | Originally posted by farukturunz
I am sending a picture hereby (part of an analysis made with the ANSYS program) showing the dominant vibrating area by an excitation at the level of
the first overtone of A=440) This result was accessed with the specific frequency of the brace I glued to the space in front of the bridge. The
specific frequency of that brace was 375.19 Hz.
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Here is another picture of the mode in range that shows the behavior of the soundboard none of which the braces were tuned to reach a soundboard
vibration on purpose in the range of 695.165 Hz frequency. Please note how the vibrating areas are messy as opposed to those vibrate with the
frequency 881.652 Hz. http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?action=attachme...
881.652Hz was a desired frequency (the first overtone of the A4=440Hz) and had been arranged by using a brace whose frequency was assigned as
375.19Hz
No brace was assigned to achieve a modal vibration at 695.165 Hz frequency range. Still there is some vibration at that range but the vibrating areas
are not lined up.
These pictures demonstrate that all musical instruments can produce some sound but the characteristics of the sound come into existence as a result of
the probability law and by chance some sounds in the sound spectrum of an instrument whose soundboard was not designed properly, may be
"good" but not all the sounds have the similar characteristics, consequently the instrument has not balance.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Hi Faruk
Wow, it never ceases to amaze me at how progressively systematic and scientific you are in your development of the oud. Thanks to people like you and
Alioud this instrument is not only thriving, but even developing...
I think there are many ways and systems for "going beyond" simply "building by the numbers". Many great classical guitar builders for example have
developed sophisticated "voicing" techniques by which they sing certain frequencies at he soundboard and feel how it vibrates and reacts. The great
archtop guitar builder ( I forget his name ) never once picked up a thickness guage in his life to measure how thick he was carving his tops... he
worked totally on feeling the flexibility of the wood with his fingers. [or something like this, according to the legend].
The point is that if you have a system and it works - and that is proven by consistently great sounding instruments again and again and again, as
Faruk & Co. obviously have done, then you are really on to something, and best to stick with that! In my opinion.
However it does seem to me that other makers have found different ways to also arrive at a place where they can achieve consistent and excellent
results... for example I wonder you Faruk or Alioud has ever heard of the SOUND IS ROUND theory?
This was developed by a guy who discovered that 'peak' of the scalloped guitar braces actually damaged the tone because they are lying in the
'frequency rings' of particular pitches. This guy (also forget his name) build an astonishing career for himself simply by figuring out how to reach
deep inside Martin guitars, thru the soundholes with tiny fingerplanes and sanding blocks - and using his SOUND IS ROUND modal became a legend for
being able to open the entire range in guitars that had certain blockages (which basically they all do if they are not 'treated').
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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Hi Eddi,
There is no “only true way” in making any product in a good quality. . The last thing I want to do is to get involved in an argument dealing with
the falsity of different methods by which good quality was achieved.
Ladder type bracing is the most tried one for bracing the oud soundboards and thus can be classified as “traditional”. Carbon Fiber Composite
Soundboard of course has nothing to do with the tradition. May be there is a breaking point of the “tradition” in the “sound”! Thus in the
building techniques of the musical instruments. All sort of sound amplifications have already determined the case. Hearing systems are under heavy
threat in the modern cities. Our ears need high volume because of being influenced by consistent noise.
Nevertheless, the lattice bracing may be developed in a way suitable for the “traditional” oud sound. Nevermore a mic or any other electronic
device may be needed to amplify its sound.
To me the most determining peculiarity of the musical sound is the "tone" We all know that this feature is called "timbre".
Discrimination and gustation aptitudes are object to develop within cultural environments and long historical eras. But often some sudden and critical
changes can take place in those aptitudes during subversive periods like today. Music converting to a market product and high volume becoming the
first peculiarity expected and wanted from a musical instrument especially for those making live music in music holes and so called disco's. However
tone is more important for those playing for recordings. As an oud builder I am trying to be as flexible as I can to be able to make ouds for all
different demands coming from people who are either volume oriented or timbre oriented and I am obliged to satisfy them with the ouds I make on their
special orders. To fumble in the dark is not for me. I must know what is there in the oud by using those engineering programs and enhance my original
"Brace Tuning Method". I am eager to learn from others who are eager to teach me.
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jaron
Oud Maniac
Posts: 84
Registered: 6-14-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Here is the "sound is round" guy:
http://www.vanlingeguitars.com/index.html
Faruk Turunz makes an important point. There is no single best method for making any particular item. Each method requires its own world of
expertise and, I believe, intuition.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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I think many people misunderstand Faruk's method - or more likely they have completely no idea at all what he is doing. Anyway, it took Faruk quite a
lot of explaining and demonstrating to me personally before I could get my brain around it even a little bit.
What seems on the surface to be a rather ridged system of making the SB system tune up to certain frequencies... it might seem that this approach
lacks intuition. But what surprised me is that after Faruk has analyzed the timbers he is in fact left with several possibilities of tuning
combinations - not just ONE CORRECT ONE, and it is up to his intuition to select which combination he chooses for a particular player.
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aytayfun
Oud Junkie
Posts: 201
Registered: 1-28-2006
Location: Türkiye
Member Is Offline
Mood: luthier and player
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What a fascinating thread.
I'm with you Edward and once again, congragulations for you Faruk Usta.
As I heard from old timers the great " kemence luthier" Baron Baronak asks to his customers as what kind of sound they want. I think we will do it in
oud world by help of Faruk Usta.
Not. Baron Baronak is a great kemençe Luthier form the past. As the saying in Turkish Classical Music goes to "Manol's oud and Baron's Kemençe".
Dr. Tayfun AYDIN
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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Hi all!
I have the feeling and I hope that this was a misunderstanding between Mr. Faruk og Mr. Ali.
This is not the first time a misunderstanding occurs, and will not be the last one :-)
I am just glad I live in a time were oud-building is having a golden age!
I still remember when I learned oud and had my first consert (in Gøthe institut, 30 years ago :-). Back then it was almost impossible to bye a good
oud! Remember guys?!
And the "good" ouds we had those days, were nothing compared to what Mr. Faruk, Mr. Jameel, Mr. Matta, Mr. Ali(and many more) produce today!
I still have my Ahmad Naji Almasri oud (anyone remembers him?) one of the best oud makers in Lebanon in the 60's and 70's. And I remember how much I
loved that oud. But I have to be honest and say that ouds made by todays master Luthiers are much better.
Cheers for oud technology and perfection
P.S. It is grate of you Mr. Turunz that you are writing a book and spreding your knowledge. We are all thanksfull.  I never owned a oud by you, and deeply hope I will one day.
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Luttgutt
I still have my Ahmad Naji Almasri oud (anyone remembers him?) one of the best oud makers in Lebanon in the 60's and 70's. . |
Ahmad Naji almasri !! I have a 1981 bouzouk made by him and fixed in 1990 by Bahaa mjaiis.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7778#pid489...
you can see it in the link above.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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Thanks for the link Katakofka!
I have 2 bouzouk made by him. Beautifull peaces. He was a grate bouzouk player too. Too bad for him Matar M. took the show!
Here is a (bad) picture of my oud that is made by him.
Sorry for the bad quality, this was taken with mobil phone camera (the only camera I have :-)
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
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Lutgutt: is it possible to see those bouzouks?
thanks
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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Well of course, Katakofka!
I'll borrow a camera over the weekwend and post some pictures (I think the quality on my Ahmad Naji Almasri oud was so bad that the oud came out very
poor  And I don't want my lovely bouzouk to suffer the same
P.S. I have one of them here. The other one is back home, so you'll have to wait to the summer to see the that :-)
Have a nice weekend
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theodoropoulos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 177
Registered: 12-21-2008
Location: Greece
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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My Dear Mr.Faruk ,
we prefer learning from you rather trying to convience anybody that he has no idea about lutherie.
we all respect you and i personally believe that you are the top oud maker nowadays...
dont waste your time..just make usefull dialogs....
with respcect ,
Dimitris Theodoropoulos
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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I think Faruk's ouds are the best, and consistently the best I have ever hear. But there is much more to Faruk's oud than just great sound -- the
construction is impecible, and to this end there is an unsung HERO lurking in the background--- SWAT, Faruk's partner also deserves a HUGE HUGE HUGE
amount of credit for advancing the art of oud making.
He is also an enormously warm-hearted and generous person (just like Faruk... and the others in his small team).
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theodoropoulos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 177
Registered: 12-21-2008
Location: Greece
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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ALI OUD I JUST SAW YOUR RUDE POST IN U2U!!
DONT YOU EVER TALK TO ME LIKE THAT !
YOU ARE SO <b>hug</b>ING RUDE!!
LIKE A GREEK PERSON AS YOU SAY A BIG
F**** OFF!!!!!
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khalil
Oud Lover
Posts: 21
Registered: 4-30-2009
Location: Morocco
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Mr Luttgutt ; excuse me please.
Mr Luttgutt.excuse me please.
can you please resize your photo joined above.
it widen all the page so as to make reading difficult. thanks a lot...
with my respect.
regards and thanks again.
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ExtreamTarab
Oud Junkie
Posts: 185
Registered: 8-31-2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: ...Lessa Faker...
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Ahmad Naji Almasri
| Quote: |
Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt
I still have my Ahmad Naji Almasri oud (anyone remembers him?) one of the best oud makers in Lebanon in the 60's and 70's. . |
| Quote: |
Quote: Originally posted by katakofka
Ahmad Naji almasri !! I have a 1981 bouzouk made by him and fixed in 1990 by Bahaa mjaiis. |
Ahmad Naji Almasri is the uncle of my oud teacher,Nazih El-Masri. Mr. Nazih has 2 bouzok's made by his uncle, they sound amazing and he's a really
great bouzok player, On top of playing the oud as well.
Luttgutt I really hope to you got the camera so you can put pictures of your bouzok, and a good quality picture of AlMasri oud would be nice as well.
I have uploaded a sound sample of him playing bouzok in this link
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9172#pid613...
hope you like it.
Regards,
Ibrahim
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