| Pages:
1
2 |
tchandler
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 1-10-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
excellent! thank you guys
tom
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
Tuning also may depend upon the Rabab size. The most common folk size fits the tuning mentioned above. While the longer, larger classical size
requires a different lower tuning.
The instrument maker is sending me a recording of their preferred tunings string by string. I will translate that into standard western notes and post
it here when its done. Hopefully it will be helpful.
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
Peyman. Life is very strange. Saturday night we had our CD release party in Tokyo. On the bill with us was a band called Sevda that includes some of
Tokyo's most experienced ethnic musicians. One of them, Madoka-san brought the very same type of Rabab that you posted the photos of. Although his
model had tied frets instead of metal ones.
It was amazing to have the chance to compare the two variations of Rabab side by side. And the sound characteristics are quite different and yet
similar.
It reminded me of the Uzbek Rabab but with a far better range and sound. And the sympathetic strings help considerably.
We came to the conclusion that a hybrid of the two would be a fascinating instrument. Imagine the microtones and scale length of the Persian Rabab
with the tonal intensity and natural reverb of a traditional Afghan Rabab by adding more sympathetic strings and the high pitched accent string as
well.
Maybe something to consider having made in the future.
For now I am sold. I will try to order one of these from the contact you gave me. And may ask for some changes.
BTW. He also told me about a Rabab made along the border with Iran that is very much like the Afghan Rabab but with a longer neck and six tied frets.
Have you heard of or seen one of these?
|
|
|
Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
|
|
Yes, they play robabs in Sistan and Baluchestan region of Iran, close to the Pakistan and Afghanistan borders. The cultures are very close. The extra
frets are microtonal, I blieve. I attached a picture from the instruments museum in Iran. This shows what I mean.
The Mohammady brothers make a robab with 15 sympathetics. That was the robab in the music sample.
I have see the uzbek robab and I can tell you what I have read. The instrument is a westernized version of the robab, essentially as compliance with
the Soviet guidelines.
A sample of Persianized Robab: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K--z5Hd9M8o
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
Peyman, have you ordered from the Mohammady brothers before or know someone who has? Was it difficult to arrange?
Do you know if English is ok to contact them? We don't have anyone around us who speaks Farsi.
If it becomes possible I hope to order a Persian Rabab from them. And I may ask our maker if he can manage a Persianized Rabab like the one in your
photo.
Thanks for posting the wonderful photo.
|
|
|
Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
|
|
I know people have bought ouds from them on this forum, but they spoke persian. I was told they are very helpful and really nice people. They are real
artists. You can tell from the quality of their work. I am sure they can pull through in terms of English.
|
|
|
michoud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 383
Registered: 6-2-2006
Location: Spain
Member Is Offline
Mood: in the mooud again..
|
|
hey tkoind
I sent you a mail few days ago asking about the pegs for my rabab, did you ask the maker about if he can make pegs for my rabab? If he can I´ll send
you all details of my rabab, for make the pegs, and maybe a new bridge.
Anybody know where can I found strings for my rabab? or what can of strings I can use for it?
|
|
|
corridoio
Oud Junkie
Posts: 184
Registered: 3-11-2007
Location: Italy
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Michoud
the real problem is to find the steel and bronze for drones and sympathetic strings, the 3 melodic strings are usually between gut, nylgut and
nylon.
I took my steel and bronze strings from Matthias Wagner, Pyramid makes single strings and spools of 100/200 meters or 1/0,5 kg depending on the
diameter
I learnt the great (and best) part of what I know about rubab from the meeting with the great ustad Daud Khan some months ago,
there I saw him use .25 .30 steel spools and .35 phosphore bronze spool for drones and sympathetic strings, then I made a simple excel prg to manage
the balance of all these strings in weight, and made the order to Matthias..
U2Ume if you need some more info
Ale.
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
Hi Michoud,
I have asked our maker about pegs. His initial answer was not positive, but I am now asking him to consider making a box of replacement parts for us.
So I'll keep you posted.
About strings. A player we know also used Iranian made strings for Tanbur and Setar to replace broken drones on his Rabab. The sizes are very similar
to what corridio described. Rolls are available from Iranian music sellers and from time to time on Ebay.
I play Persian instruments so we have some of these strings and the guage is very close to what our maker places on the instruments when he constructs
them.
|
|
|
Asaf Zar
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-16-2009
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Peyman,
The number you gave me for Saeed is incorrect, I called to check in but it is incorrect now, I asked my cousin and he went to visit them at their new
address.
You need to speak Persian, if you want to order from them, I have two orders in now that I placed a long time ago and they will not get started on my
orders for another 8 months, I think the wait now is 13 months if you want to order.
They are very nice gentlemen as most Persians are
I will go back later this year to visit, I will try to take some pictures for everyone of their workshop.
Good luck
Asaf Zar
|
|
|
Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
|
|
Sorry, the phone number was from 2 years ago. I too want to visit their shop. I saw a flash documentary about them. They are very talented. Asaf, you
should take pictures of their skin top barbat.
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
Asaf Zar. Do you have strong connections in Iran? Anyone who can get ahold of a good quality Kurdish or Persian Tanboor?
I'm hoping to find one with a solid carved bowl. Our friend managed to get one while travelling there and the sound is truly brilliant compared to
other Tanboor we've heard.
Also looking for a good quality student level Kamanche.
BTW. Our maker will reply with details about available wood for Tanbur and Dotar shortly.
|
|
|
Asaf Zar
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-16-2009
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Proud of my country and craftsmen and worth every penny!!!
Dear Tkoind ,
You cannot buy quality instruments on the cheap and I resent as an Iranian that our instruments are somehow not worth the asking price by Westerners
or that we are trying to rip you off or make a profit.
The truth is you just do not know because you were not taught correctly.
There are few true craftsmen making high quality instruments and I for one will not do all of this work to teach you or bring them back and send them
to you without getting paid.
Please do contact me and then not reply in a professional way, when I answer you.
Proud of my country and craftsmen and worth every penny!!!
Asaf Zar
|
|
|
corridoio
Oud Junkie
Posts: 184
Registered: 3-11-2007
Location: Italy
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
just found another iranian maker, Sabet Rasekh, who makes the persian rabab
http://www.sabetrasekh-music.com/eng/rabab-pic-index.html
|
|
|
jhonaki
Oud Lover
Posts: 11
Registered: 11-23-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Tanbur & Dutar
Dear Asaf,
Thanks for contacting me. my email bounced back...
We can obtain the Tanboor for you, it is a new Kalami
and we also have a few Khorrasan Dutars, that will be brought back from Iran with us.
My email is jhonaki@netzero.com please get in contact with me here.
Jhonaki
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
Asaf Zar,
We have been offline for a while due to some family issues and in part due to impact to our group and lives thanks to the recession. I am sorry if we
missed getting back in touch with you.
I have to be very honest here in that I resent the tone of your post above. You make assumptions about us and about our view of music and instruments
that is entirely wrong.
First: With regard to respect for traditional instruments and the craftsmanship of their makers.
For two years we have worked hard to build up the ethnic music community here. We have done so at great personal cost and most often operating in the
red because we deeply believe in the importance of sharing this music with the community here.
Instruments are hard to get here and insanely expensive through the few shops that get them from time to time. So much that most people who want to
learn about and study these instruments are unable to do so. So we try to help by finding the best instruments we can from the best makers we can and
then providing them for people who need them.
This has meant that a lot of new players have been able to get started and have done so within what they could afford.
Maybe we don't know everything about all instruments. And maybe we cannot always afford to buy instruments made by the highest master makers. But just
because we are not rich and cannot afford the best, should not keep people from playing an learning. It is elitist and short sighted to set such an
unrealistic expectation.
I buy instruments from our friends in Iran, Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I buy what people in my community can afford. And sometimes help
them obtain instruments with our own money. We do this because we love the music and we want to see more people learn. But without teachers or
experts in our community to give them master guidance, we have to do the best we can. And we do exactly that.
So before you start accusing people of not having respect for instruments or makers. And before you talk so openly against people you do not know. You
should think about the fact that it is people like us who are doing our best to learn and understand music. And people like us who hope that music can
enlighten people about other cultures.
I am sorry we and our local ethnic music community are not rich enough to buy only the best. I am sorry we can't travel to study with masters in other
countries. But I am not remotely sorry for trying to encourage people to learn and play. And I feel no shame for my less expensive instruments made by
good hard working instrument makers and imported at prices my people can afford.
We love this music and don't need the very best instruments. We just do our best to have good quality instruments to play.
If you don't agree with this philosophy, then maybe you don't understand that the music comes first. And that is what matters to us.
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
One more thought. I play an instrument made by a wonderful maker in Peshawar. He escaped the Taliban and kept his music alive in Peshawar all these
years. His shop has dirt floors and his staff make less per year than what most of his instruments sell for abroad.
He loves making these instruments. And over the past year he and I have become partners in helping him to keep his business alive. I buy as many
instruments from him as I can afford. Because the economy is so bad here most of them stay in my aparment for months before I am able to find homes
for them. And even then we break even or lose money most of the time.
We run this because since we started doing so a lot more people are playing ethnic instruments now. I'm very proud of that fact.
I know my partner's instruments are the best of their type. When I play this instrument I feel his love and passion in the sound and vibration of the
instrument. And people who hear me play it feel that too.
He teaches me little by little by audio recordings, sometimes a video taken by students who live in Peshawar. And sometimes just emails with things
for me study and try. He is my master teacher and I hope someday I can go and visit him or invite him to my home for a visit.
Now I am trying to help him out by selling his instruments abroad. The prices are set just a little above my cost so I can turn around and buy more
from him. I don't care about the risk of stock in my apartment or about the fact that we don't make money from this. It isn't about that.
I asked Asaf Zar if he could help us find Persian instruments. A lot of people here want to study and my contacts in Iran are not very consistent. But
his response was a lecture about how only master level expensive instruments were worth our time. And maybe he is right.
But if people here cannot afford master level instruments, then what do you suggest? Do you recommend that they not play? Not study? Forget their
interests?
I think they should try to find affordable instruments now and explore their interest in the music. If they find it is the passion of their musical
lives, then by all means they will buy a higher end instrument. And by all means they will save up for a master instrument that can better reflect the
sound and quality of the music.
My first ethnic instrument was a cheap Ebay Saz. I fell in love with the sound and later had the late and wonderful Master Haluk make one for me. I
play this wonderful Saz now and I love it for the man who made it and for the sound. But I still love that old cheap Saz, because it opened the door
to playing for me.
I hope you can understand this concept. A lot of people out there want to play. Asking for an instrument they can afford is not a crime. Providing one
they can afford is creating an opportunity for a new artist to arrise. You should look at it with this perspective before passing judgement.
|
|
|
Asaf Zar
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-16-2009
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
My dear friend,
I do not mean to offend you.
I do not mean to offend you.
I do not mean to offend you.
If you are happy with a ebay saz, that is wonderful!!
The instruments I speak of are not for the rich, they are for those who can hear the difference in tone.
I cannot imagine telling the great craftsmen who spent their lives as well as there blood,sweat and tears creating them,
"hey I want it for nothing, I am not going to get a job like everyone else and work hard, like everyone else for a few months so I can afford one, I
am just going to play the poor artist bit and sit around crying to anyone foolish enough to listen, Oh give me one, I deserve it. they are too
expensive!"
Sorry for being a bit dramatic and silly, but you need direction.
my friend, if you want a good instrument you need to work for it,
I would guese 95% of the people on this site worked hard to pay for their ouds and went out of their way to get an oud that they wanted, no matter the
cost because of a commitment to creating beauty that burns in them.
Taking the time out to work up $1000-$3000 is really not going to take that much out of your life. six months from now, you will be proud and cherish
that instrument all the more because you worked for it. You will see a real instrument is worth so much more than what you payed for it. it comes
alive in a way a poor instrument does not. It improves with age as your playing will.
You can make music with anything, it is natural, there is a reason people go to masters to study and learn.
Every lesson in life has to be payed for.
I will be in Japan in the fall, I will personally come visit you and show you my Tar and my other instruments, so you can hear the difference and
understand why.
Remember, everyone on this site is her to help and share,
please ask around.
I do not mean to offend you.
Asaf
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
Asaf,
Again you miss the point. Most people who are just starting are not yet sure they are ready to commit to a serious instrument. First they want the
chance to try simply playing and learning about the instrument.
For these people they are never going to invest that much money in a grand instrument until they are sure they want to play it. This makes sense. They
want to try it simply. With no schools here and few opportunities to try instruments many will never try because they don't want to risk a lot of
money on something they are not sure of.
Of course later they will buy nice instruments when they commit to study a specific instrument.
I really don't appreciate your talking down to me or to my clients. We play ethnic music because we love it. Those of us who have found our
instrument own well made and good sounding instruments. We are happy with that.
Sure it would be great if everyone could have the best possible instrument. But not everyone is that committed to one.
My Haluk Saz is a treasure I saved to buy. It sounds wonderful. But I bought it BECAUSE I had the chance to experiment with an instrument I could
afford to simply try. That is a natural progression.
My guess is many of the Oud players here started out with something affordable so they could explore first. THEN when they were sure about what they
loved to play, they invested in something. This is how it works for most people. Very few wake up one day committed to a $3000 instrument they have
never touched or seen before.
You need to realize that most people here have never even heard ethnic music other than Japanese music. When they finally do some want to try it. So
we make that possible by providing very good quality but inexpensive instruments for them to try. And we do that at no profit.
The result is what matters my friend. And that result is that a lot of people are experimenting with ethnic music instruments here because of this
approach. Before, they didn't and they all say it was because it was not an investment they were preprared to make without knowing about the
instrument and their feelings for it first. This MAKES SENSE!
I don't need your arrogant advice about life. You look down on people who are trying to learn about your traditions. And you are impatient with the
fact that not everyone is sure about what they wish to study and learn.
You are right that a wonderful instrument is best. But that is only right when someone commits to a given instrument. Until then, people must have the
opportunity to try.
I stand firmly by the results here in Japan. There are many many more ethnic instruments players because of our service. And many of those have gone
on to buy top end instruments once they were certain that that instrument was the one for them. The rest have continued to explore and one day when
they find what they want to learn seriously, they will commit.
One more note. I have been in the music industry for 30 years now and run a small studio here. I don't need lessons in investing in quality or in
life.
You can keep your advice. We have other master artists and artisans who work with us and understand our approach. Including two of Japan's master
Shamisen players. They love the music first and wish to see more people explore it. And they know that most people will not if there is an expensive
wall between them and the music. They know, and rightly so, that those who really commit will later buy grand instruments. But to learn, to simply
start to learn, this kind of investment is unnecessary and it is elitist to impose such a foolish standard on people. That harms the music!
I will follow the advice of those masters who understand how to spread this music. And not those who think it something to rigid and exclusive.
Tkoind
|
|
|
Tkoind
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 7-24-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: dreaming
|
|
Case in point.
Saturday night we hosted a charity event for orphan children in Afghanistan. The audience was a mix of people from the ethnic music and dance
communities, and a large turn out of people who wished to support our charity effort.
The opening band played traditional Indian music. Both artists have studied in Japan with instructors here. Their Sitar player's instrument was a
hand me down from someone who randomly picked it up in Inda. The body is cracked and the finish peeling and damaged.
As a part time worker it was all he could afford. Life in Tokyo is hard and expensive. But this instrument made it possible for him to play. And his
teacher, a warm and gentle man who has studied for many years in India, taugh him and gave him guideance to learn.
The band's perfomance was beautiful and moving. The audience was silent through the performance and reviews online the next day praised this band for
taking them to another world.
Perhaps a beautiful master Sitar would have sounded better. Maybe master Indian players would have been critical of his worn old instrument. But the
audience did not care. They experienced the beauty of Indian music and the passion of this young band.
This is what truly matters. Not the price of his instrument or the fame of its maker. What matters is this young man's passion for the music,
dedication of his time to study and his humility and respect for the art above all else.
Maybe some day he will buy a grand Sitar. But for now I cherish the fact that he is learning and playing and sharing his passion with the public.
This is the highest of all values and the greatest of all treasures.
Another example.
In my band we have an aging Persian Santoor. I think it coast about $300. It isn't beautiful, and maybe it doesn't sound as good as an expensive one.
We use it for about four songs out of a collection of dozens for our live performances. So replacing it with a costly one is unlikely. This
instrument serves us well. And that is evidenced by the response it generates every time we perform.
On Saturday, like at every show we have ever played using the Santoor, people come to the stage to see and touch this instrument. They want to try
it, they ask where it comes from, how we discovered it and where they could hear more.
People love the sound, they love how it looks with the seemingly infinite number of strings and the beautiful ringing clarity they make when struck by
the inexpensive replacement hammers we bought from ebay. No one ever asks who made it or how much it costs, they don't care. They always simply
express how much they love the sound and concept of it.
Until this instrument is unplayable I will never replace it. And why should I? I am not trying to impress the world with the grandure of our band's
Santoor. I am trying to share with them the beauty of this music. And that is what the people who come to our shows care about. The music comes
first.
One final example.
We shared a stage with a band once who share Asaf's opinion of instruments. When a young man asked the Oud player about the instrument, he gladly
introducted it to him. The young man then asked how much it would cost for him to obtain an Oud to learn on. The artist responded that it was a waste
of money to buy anything other than a master level instrument.
His argument was that the experience would only be complete with a fully professonal instrument. And he quoted a range of JPY150,000 to JPY300,000
from Japan's only Oud retailer.
The young audience member said it was too expensive for him. Most salarymen his age make about JPY190,000 per month and are able to save almost
nothing to suvive life in Tokyo. So he looked discouraged.
Thankfully another player from our community was there. He is also an experienced and gifted player. But he began his years of mastery over the Oud
with a cheap Turkish instrument puchased on Ebay.
He openly admits that it was not a great instrument. But over the first couple years he made improvements to it and it served him well as he learned
about the Oud.
He advised the young man to find a decent instrument at a price he could afford and to just start playing. And that is what the young man did.
His advisor now owns a beautiful custom instrument that is worthy of his talents. The old instrument is still with him and I think he still loves it
too.
The young player is learning, something that would not be happening had he listened to the other player's advice. One more artist working to learn and
preserve ethnic music. That is what is valuable.
Everyone wants a wonderful instrument. And when someone is devoted to an instrument, they will make the sacrifices to buy one.
But everyone also deserves the opportunity to experiment, to study and to learn. For that they need not make a massive sacrifice when they can be
enabled by competent quality instruments that will open the doors to ethnic music for them.
This is where you and I part company Asaf. I am an advocate of those who wish to explore and study and to do so without great risk or unnecessary
excessive investment. This encourages the creation of new artists and students. This encourages the proliferation and study of ethnic music. This is
the right answer for the vast majority of people who simply want to try before they commit. And many famous and gifted instructors from many
disciplines support this approach.
I stand by this heart and soul.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
