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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi everybody,
in my opinion the AKG C411 regarding the specs has a too high bass resonse and will need a lot of equalization to produce a natural oud sound:
May I invite you to my homerecording thread, where we also discuss microphone choices for recording and stage?
Maybe you'll find new inspirations 
PS: You might also find THIS discussion in a different forum useful.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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But then again, if you have say, a floating bridge oud that has great tops but is a bit light on in the bass department, as some of them can be, then
this AKG C411 would balance the sound out quite nicely...
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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At the deep C of the oud at 65,4 Hz the C411 boosts the bass by +10dB, which is pretty much, so I would expect the relation between bass, mids and
trebbles quite unbalanced even on a floating bridge oud. On the other hand this might be compensated by the placement position on the soundboard.
So far for the theory
Experience is a different medal ... the question is, do those people who have experience with this AKG compared it to good stage mics?
Don't misunderstand what I said ... I don't wanted to say, that the AKG is a bad choice ... I just wanted to throw in some thoughts about possible
alternatives to optimize sound quality.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2938
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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I have an AKG C411, and used it on some gigs. it works okay, but IMO didn't sound great, a little better than a pickup maybe.
I compared it to an very inexpensive MXL pencil condenser, and it was no contest, the MXL was far superior.
It's not a bad choice, you can attach it to an oud without modification, sounds pretty decent.
On the other hand, if you have phantom power, why not just get a good microphone?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Most people seem to be worried about feedback problems. But I think as far as one's not sitting to near to a monitor speaker or another loud
instrument like percussion is nearby, an experienced sound engineer should be able to handle a good mic.
And even when phantom power is missing ... some good mics like the Rode M3 can use a battery ... and a decent preamp isn't too expensive.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Some ouds have a very live soundboard, you can feel it WOW, its not even related to timbre or volume in obvious ways, and those ouds will have more
tendency to feed back.
There is a major peak around 200 hz (G#) on most ouds, and that needs notching.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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No problem for an experienced sound engineer, don't you think so?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | Some ouds have a very live soundboard, you can feel it WOW, its not even related to timbre or volume in obvious ways, and those ouds will have more
tendency to feed back.
There is a major peak around 200 hz (G#) on most ouds, and that needs notching.
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Totally true 
And Aymara, good sound engeneers don't grow on trees. It is too much "risk" to "build your world" assuming that the next sound man you encounter is
good enough!
But that is said, good sound system and engineer does not help at all when you play with drums, el guitar, base, trompet, sax, synt! The oud WILL feed
or NOT get heard!
Again, when you play for 5000 people, just forget usual microphones!
So it all depends on your needs
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Ok, in this case a pickup seems the only way.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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A pickup, yes, and it sounds like stuffing the oud full of socks is necessary too. Black socks work better than red and white striped ones. That
adorable flatback $150 oud from The King would probably be a great building block if you don't like the toilet seat look.
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Some really good comments here, (serious as well as humorous)
I agree with Brian as far as the sound goes, these mics seem to work better for things like violin. After all, it's still just the sound of the wood,
not the air moving, and anything on the soundboard that doesn't need to be there shouldn't, though as I said Chris, it did balance out one of my ouds
nicely, and I was able to play with about 1/2 dozen Daf players, (try it sometime, those chains can be LOUD!) two darbukas and two tonbaks all going
off, and still be heard clean and clear with no feedback problems.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Yes, I know ... I bought a Tar last week and also tried a Daf. How powerful a Daf can be, can be seen HERE ... great performance in that video btw.
I think, the main problem is, what Luttgut reported, that you might be confronted with a sound engineer, that should be better called a sound tinkerer
Last weekend I have been at a medieval market and there I saw/heared such a disaster ... 3 female and one male singer with Davul drums and a lute ...
the mic of the male vocals was too bassy and the lute can't be heard at all, though it had a pickup.
The sound engineer was totally overextended.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
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Mood: big band envy
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I use this for concert situations - if you have a good instrument, it simply amplifies the actual sound very clearly and beautifully. I place the mic
attachment to my oud's bridge and pair it with a Presonus Tube Preamp.
DPA Miniature Microphone
I highly recommend it.
This works more accurately than anything else I've tried, though not the best for extremely high volume situations.
If you are playing with a very loud band without a dedicated sound engineer, then I recommend the K&K Twin Spot Internal paired with one (or even
two) preamps. Of course, at super high volumes, the oud might not sound like an oud anymore depending on your PA system and preamp quality...but the
K&K pickups when placed well do sound very natural at low to medium-high volume settings.
Take care,
mavrothi
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi Mav!
No wonder ... the specs are stunning (totally linear over the oud's complete frequency range) and DPA mics have a very good reputation.
The downside is the price ... around 400 Euros only for the DPA. And the Presonus Tube preamp costs a further 100 Euros.
On the other hand, the DPA is that good as it seems, that it could also be used for recording. But for recording the Presonus isn't the best choice.
But who cares ... even my Tascam US-122 for just 140 Euros would do a good job here. It might also work on stage, because it has line out ... but
you'll need a USB power connector.
So overall the DPA seems to be a very good tip!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
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Mood: big band envy
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Hi Aymara,
Yes, the price is pretty high for the DPA, no denying that. But the sound is really something. When I place the mic on my bridge, the sound that I
hear is exactly the sound that comes from my oud acoustically!
The two channel Presonus is just a more affordable option with a pretty decent (warm) sound b/c of the tube option. Compared to the crazy boutique
and generally high end preamps out there (The 2 channel Grace Design preamp is over $1500! - the single channel is around $600 - Grace Designs) the Presonus is a good deal for the price for good live sound. I usually sing while performing, so a 2 channel mic preamp is the
best option for me.
The DPA's are used in the theatre, and take pretty much anything, even water! The actors often have them actually taped to their faces and then
covered in makeup. This I've heard from a company that supplies theater/broadway troupes. Anyway, that just tells you it's a sturdy mic, even though
it is very tiny.
If you are serious about having a really true sound in live situations and in the studio too, the DPA is a wonderful though admittedly pricey option.
However, if you compare the price to a quality vocal mic, like a Neumann KMS 105, the price is pretty reasonable.
Take care,
mavrothi
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi again!
| Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis | | When I place the mic on my bridge, the sound that I hear is exactly the sound that comes from my oud acoustically! |
That's what I expected from the specs and the reputation of this manufacturer.
| Quote: | | The two channel Presonus is just a more affordable option .... |
... which I expect to be pretty good on stage, but a bit too noisy for serious recording.
| Quote: | | The 2 channel Grace Design preamp is over $1500! - the single channel is around $600 ... |
Yes, high-end preamps are pretty expensive as microphones too.
| Quote: | | Anyway, that just tells you it's a sturdy mic, even though it is very tiny. |
Very interesting story.
| Quote: | | However, if you compare the price to a quality vocal mic, ... |
I dicided for a AKG C3000B just for recording purposes and am very happy with it ... it's hard to beat for a price of 190 Euros ... a better one like
yours costs about the double.
But because it's a large diaphragm condenser, it is not the perfect choice for stage, if there are other loud instruments or monitor speakers
nearby.
So I think your tip is absolutely great for those people seeking the best possible sound on stage.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Without starting an argument, I rather think most systems are assembled out of very inexpensive parts. Leaving aside the ones that use a known
commercial microphone, the good ones don't really cost more to make than the bad ones. So let's try to made our own based on the cumulative experience
of our members
As for best overall placement of a sensor, Luttgutt was saying he was down to the "under the string loops", like using the Shadow one. That's the same
sense I get from the "mic attached to stick under the string loops", as well as that strange reverb box that has a pickup version.
It makes sense to NOT attach to the soundboard because of feedback, and after all the bridge is the first element the strings excite. On guitars the
"under the saddle" position is excellent, which on the oud, if we're not drilling or otherwise modifying the bridge, translates to "under the string
loops".
I'm looking for a way to design this general purpose pickup-with-preamp that will (also) work for loud venues and that we can have for under $100, and
I have a wide choice of sensors and parts to work with, including ones that can be slipped under the strings. Can anyone else confirm that "under the
string loops" is working very well (best) for them?
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
Member Is Offline
Mood: big band envy
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Sometimes internal pickups directly under the bridge can sound boomy. It really depends on the oud, and so you need to check if the under the bridge
is best, or perhaps slightly behind it or to the side.
It would be great to have a good live sound option at an affordable price - that is why I like the K&K brand, though I'm not crazy about their
preamps.
Take care,
mavrothi
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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No, no I meant ON the bridge. I would expect under the bridge to be boomy and feedback-prone. Next to the bridge is unpredictable. The soundboard's
vibration is how feedback occurs. Adhesives are always uncertain, and moving even a millimeter changes everything.
The Shadow pickup that I think Luttgutt likes best goes under the string loops, sitting on top of the bridge. Drilling/slitting into the bridge would
probably work well, but I wouldn't want to drill mine, and we'd need a very thin sensor. So the string loop trick is probably best.
http://www.shadow-electronics.com/showpic.html?id=245&nr=2&...
The next question is whether people are willing to drill into the end plate to mount an end-pin jack?
http://www.tapastring.com/vintagejack%20special%20orders.htm
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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A further problem is, that some ouds like mine don't have an end plate. I would expect, that on such ouds mounting an end-pin jack isn't advisable.
But it should be possible to mount an endplate
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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I meant the internal wood end plate. I would imagine that for loud amplified playing you w'oudn't want to use the same oud that has the best acoustic
sound, so maybe drilling into the end-cap on one's worst sounding oud would be OK. Personally I'm going to wait, but if I find a great pickup combo
that can be mounted inside .... there's an oud in the corner of my office that lives in fear of sharp objects! I think that as soon as I fix it up
enough to play it, it's going to do everything to "open up" and please me so I don't "open up" it's butt plate with a reamer ;-). There's an Adani
that did just that, and is enjoying a new life, being taken out, being called "baby", etc.
You don't even need to attach a fish pump, or stick them in the fish tank and shout "information!", all you have to do is scare 'em a little! I know
it's harsh, but it's for their own good. Try talking about the cold weather this year, and the winter of 1809, when the custodians at the Paris
conservatory used over a hundred "obsolete" historical priceless harpsichords for firewood. Hire an old grizzled lute whisperer to tell that story and
watch even the most stubborn instruments come alive. The only one it hasn't worked on around here is an old battle-scarred Martin D-45, because it's
deaf as a fence post, and stupid to boot.
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