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Elie Riachi
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
By far the biggest problem in raising action is the bending of the body of the oud. The back really doesn't have much structural resistance to
the string tension other than the ribs, and they are often too thin to contribute much stiffness. |
How about bracing the back Doc?
Elie
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
How about bracing the back Doc?
Elie |
I am planning on using a carbon fiber laminate around the inside of the top rib to stiffen the body. The Lemon oud pictured has an extra thick top
rib (3mm), but the relentless tension over time will still bend it up. It has raised only 1/16 inch over 24 years so far....
I am encouraged to see some innovation like this Tahir oud. There will always be traditional designs, but I believe it's high time oud makers
started to incorporate some of the developments being used in classical guitar construction, like: Fan, Lattice, or Kasha bracing using carbon fiber/balsa laminates, etc. These new approaches have dramatically improved the sound of classical guitars, why not
ouds too?
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 4-9-2004
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Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
I am encouraged to see some innovation like this Tahir oud. There will always be traditional designs, but I believe it's high time oud makers
started to incorporate some of the developments being used in classical guitar construction, like: Fan, Lattice, or Kasha bracing using carbon fiber/balsa laminates, etc. These new approaches have dramatically improved the sound of classical guitars, why not
ouds too? |
Hello Doc,
I have noticed that my presumably "Yaseen Ali Khalefeh" tourist oud, utilizes fan bracing for the lower part of the sound board!
I have an Oscar Shmidt acoustic guitar (fan bracing) and comparing it to my oud and my son's plain braced guitar, my guitar seemed somewhat
quiter than the latter two.
I wonder to what extent, if any, the fan and lattice bracing patterns impede the resonance of the sound board as compared to the plain bracing
pattern?
I know that one advantage is that they distribute the vibration along the sound board, but I would think a sound board, with the grain properly
oriented, already has that advantage. Just wondering.
Elie
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journeyman
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Hello Eli,
I am not a builder, but I am sure that there are many other factors contributing to volume. The Spanish were the first builders to use fan bracing
in guitars, and one theory is that it gave their instruments more volume than guitars with the lateral bracing used in the rest of Europe. Volume was
an issue for the Spanish as their style of song and dance was more robust than in the rest of Europe. When the French and Italians started using
single-strung six string guitars, the Spanish stayed with the six-course, paired-string instruments, presumably because they produced more volume. As
a non-builder, the question for me is what contributes to the volume of an oud more, the bracing or the liveliness of the lightweight construction.
My rosewood Shehata oud is quite heavy and does not have a lot of volume; evenness and sustain yes, but volume, no. Just a few observations and idle
thoughts.
Cheers,
Roy
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by journeyman
My rosewood Shehata oud is quite heavy and does not have a lot of volume; evenness and sustain yes, but volume, no. Just a few observations and idle
thoughts.
Cheers,
Roy |
Hi Roy,
What type of bracing does your Shahata oud have? How would you rate it in terms of loudness relative to other ouds?
Also are you getting enough tension in the strings (what is the tension of the strings)? I think 8 to 9 pounds is acceptable. Note the plain nylon
strings should be about a 1.5 pounds or so higher because they stretch out the first few days. Also, the tension becomes lower when the scale length
is shorter than scale length at which the strings tensions are indicated to obtain the open string notes. In this case denser or higher tension
string sets are used to bring the tension higher.
See, I think it is a battle, louder can be acheived by higher string tension, this leads to strengthening the bracing or coming up with a stronger
bracing pattern for the mass which means fan bracing and other than the travers bracing. In my oppinion, this might kill some of the low frequency
harmonics produced by the top and create distributed regions which might be restricted to produce the higher harmonics. At this point, I think it
starts sounding more like a piano (for a lack of a better description.) This is how I think the guitar sounds. On the other hand, I think, an oud
made using the transverse type bracing sounds more like a banjo (again for the lack of a better description.) I am not ruling out other types of
bracing. The way I interpert the article regarding the lattice bracing which Dr. oud posted the link to earlier is this:
lattice structures can have much higher strength / mass ratio which create stronger and lighter structures. Using lattice type of bracing, one can
make the soundboard even lighter hoping that the combined lattice brace and soundboard will add up to a system which would be stronger and lighter
than the traditional brace/soundboard system (kind of like the construction of an airplane's wing.) This is great, but, my logic tells me that
it must also be as flexible as the traditional. Just pondering!
Elie
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Dr. Oud
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The difference between traditional ladder bracing and fan bracing is that the node points created by the traverse ladder braces are eliminated from
the soundboard. The idea is to allow a larger area of the face to vibrate freely and produce an even balance of frequency response. All ouds have
favorite frequencies, which are the result of the traverse tone brace locations. The guitar's characteristic tone is due to more complex
features including the size and shape of the body, number of strings, string length, etc, than simply the bracing design.
The Kasha design took a different approach, bracing the face and the back to balance response based on acoustic principles, rather than structural,
of which fan bracing is still a variable.
Lattice bracing reduces the mass of the face significantly if used with balsa/carbon fiber construction. This lower mass allows longer vibration and
more amplitude increasing volume and sustain. It allows the largest area of the face to vibrate freely.
The traditional oud's traverse bracing is effective if the structure is light enough and the locations are correct for the length of the face
and volume of the body. The problem is that the range is very narrow, while the more modern bracing methods are more predictable. and consistent.
Increasing tension in the soundboard by using larger guage strings can increase volume, balance volume among the strings but inhibits sustain. Up to
a point where the bridge peels off the face.
It's all a balancing act whatever method is applied.
Hey Mike, should this thread be moved to the Advice & Tips forum?
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Hi Doc,
I would like to note that if the shape of the oud varied as much as the guitar shape, the tone qualities would be dependant on that also as well as
the number of strings and their tension. You said the same in your post but it may not be readily understood in the first part of your post, however
you make that clear in the last part of the post. So, my understanding is: the shape of the oud, size, strings and tension, would affect its tone as
well as the bracing but to a lesser extent. Is this correct?
I think this is the best thread so far in discussing bracing. I wish that some other oud makers would share their thoughts with us here. This may be
the best way for them to promote their products by illustrating to the oud community their depth of knowledge in making the oud.
I admire Dr. oud for his effort, time and contributions in participating in these forums and his book.
Also, Thank you Mike for providing such informative forums, this is an important and noble contribution. It is one of the few things left which is not
driven by "making money."
Last but not least, Jameel. His illustrations and narratives are worth a thousand thanks.
Keep it going....
Elie
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Jameel
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Thanks for the kudos, Elie.
Bracing, this is the most puzzling part of oud building. From what I've read so far, the purpose of the braces is
1. support the soundboard
2. do #1 in such a way as to let the soundboard perform to the best of its ability by arrangement/design of the braces.
I'd like to get pretty basic here and say that perhaps through the centuries oud makers may have tried many different kinds of braces. I
don't think that they were intelligent enough to make ouds, but never try any other bracing than traverse. Perhaps the reason most ouds use this
bracing is because it works the best. I suppose the oud could be analyzed to the teeth and experimented with to the extent that guitars have, but then
we might end up with ouds that sound like a piano. I would have to say that the classical guitar, which is identical to the oud in terms of its
most basic form and function sounds more like a piano than an oud. My biggest question is how to build ouds and get consistently good sound.
I'm not after the holy grail of oud sound, just a good overall sound. I suppose some of this analysis is moot because most of these questions
will answer themselves after many ouds are built, but I would still like to know how to design a bracing pattern from oud to oud regardless of shape
or size. In other words, have a general rule for bracing that doesn't follow a specific layout (as, for example, provided in a specific plan).
Any ideas?
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Jonathan
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Turunz briefly discusses this in the following link, under the section entitled "A Short Summary of My Acoustical Researches"
http://www.oudmaster.com/characteristic_of_oud.htm
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jameel
Thanks for the kudos, Elie.
I would still like to know how to design a bracing pattern from oud to oud regardless of shape or size. In other words, have a general rule for
bracing that doesn't follow a specific layout (as, for example, provided in a specific plan). Any ideas? |
You are welcome Jameel...
I have the same question and have an idea of where to start the research for an answer... I will start my research by posing a basic question open to
all oud lovers, players and makers: What distinguishes the Classical Oud's voice from other musical instruments?
In other words, what are the characteristics of the Classical Oud's sound?
This can be answered scientifically by doing a sound spectral analysis on an oud which every expert agrees that it has the sound of the ideal
classical oud. To me this would be the start. I intend to make such a measurement in time, but the hardest factor is having access to such an ideal
oud.
Elie
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journeyman
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Hi Eli,
I'm not sure how the top is braced in my Shehata oud. While it is not as loud as some other ouds, it is certainly not a problem for me. It has
a nice warm sound with lots of sustain and is pretty even throughout the entire range. I had a cheap tourist oud that was very loud, but the tone
above the lower register was like cardboard.
Cheers,
Roy
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Jameel
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I was also thinking recently about the effect of the raqma or pickguard on the sound. There is always the consideration of soundboard thickness,
thickness symmetry, grain direction, bookmatching, runout, number of pieces, but little discussion of the effect of the pickguard. There is so much
emphasis on how the top vibrates, shouldn't the pickguard material/size be considered? I've noticed many pickguards vary greatly. Most Nahat
pickguards I've seen are pretty small. I've seen some that are quite large, extending from the big hole almost all the way to the bridge and
halfway to the small holes. This is the most important part of the soundboard in terms of sound production/character and after all the careful bracing
and soundboard thicknessing, we slap a piece of hardwood veneer, turtle-shell, or even plastic. I've seen a couple Najarian ouds with large
plastic pickguards, plus a clear plactic pickguard that extends beyond that one. This kind of makes all the tedious sounboard analysis a little
pointless, imo. Then again, maybe after making a few ouds, I will better understand the whole principle. Just doing some theoretical daydreaming
here.....
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jameel
I was also thinking recently about the effect of the raqma or pickguard on the sound.
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Hi Jameel,
I share your concerns and I am sure the raqma has an effect just like the inlay would. And I wonder if a raqma is needed, at least not the way I play
so far. But I think the effects of the raqma may be negligible if its size and thickness are kept to minimum. I have also noticed a minimal amount
of inlays in the soundboards of a Nahat, but I haven't seen a lot of Nahats so my statement may not be accurate.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Unfortunately, Turunz only discuss his theory for the "tuning" of braces, but doesn't mention anything about location. The location of
the braces is the most critical thing and is related to the length & width of the face & the volume of the back, (according to Arafati).
He's developed a formula for the size & location of the tone braces based on analysis of over 150 ouds he and his Father in law made and or
repaired. He has intended to publish this in a book when he retires, but he's not giving it up just yet. He has mentioned in a recent letter that
he has an apprentice, so hopefully his knowledge will be passed down. Maybe what we need to do is for everyone with a really good oud to measure the
body, face and location of the braces & bridge (if they can get inside). The data could be correlated and analized to find location patterns
and/or ratios common among good ouds. Otherwise, it's build it as thin as you dare, string it up and pray for tone!
Money? What money? Where's the money?!?
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mavrothis
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Hi,
This is a pretty cool discussion. All I have to say is that I've played a lot of nice ouds with large pickguards and great tone/projection, so I
don't think it's that great of a concern. My Najarian has an extended thin plastic guard under the large rosette and on one corner, and it
is only improving in tone as time goes on. I think lots of old Karibyan ouds had big pickguards too.
About Turunz, I think he mentions something about bracing position from his speech at the Thessaloniki oud meeting, something about 'nodes'
(I'm not a big math person).
Anyway, I feel that the best ouds I've played or heard in person were either made by one of the old master makers, by their students (like Farouk
Shehata or Fathi Amin), or were well-made copies of ouds made by the old masters. Pickguards didn't seem to be an issue. You could test that
though, simply by finding a decent oud and removing the pickguard and comparing the tones. (Please record before and after if anyone does this, it
would be cool if it did make a difference.)
Take care,
mav
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Hi Doc.,
I guess one way to learn the secrets is to become an apprentice!
Elie
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