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charlie oud
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The western scale of "G major b7th" could be seen as Ajam on sol (G, A, B, C) then Nahawand on re (d, e, f, g). There may be an Arabic name for this
scale, I dont know. C ( have edited prevoius post because I gave the wrong note (e flat Should read e)
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Edward Powell
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Maqam Rock'em 
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charlie oud
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Are you sure Ed? I thought Maqam Rock'em was the one which uses a fuzz box or grunge pedal. We must try and preserve these disappearing maqamet.
Though its nice to see the "cry baby" wah-wah is making a come back. C
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by charlie oud
The western scale of "G major b7th" could be seen as Ajam on sol (G, A, B, C) then Nahawand on re (d, e, f, g). There may be an Arabic name for this
scale, I dont know. C ( have edited prevoius post because I gave the wrong note (e flat Should read e) |
Major b7 scale --- you mean mixolydian mode? (called KHAMAJ scale in north indian music)
I don't know if this is any arabic scale - - - but then again I am quite curious about this idea of "arabic scales".
From my understanding originally there were not any scales in middle-eastern music, only tetrachords. Then tetrachords would be put together and made
into scales.
For sure the 'recent' conferences pushed the scale concepts in an attempt to simplify things...
But personally I always hesitate to call a maqam by a particular 'scale' name, or lable a particular scale by a name of a certain maqam. To me it
tends to oversimplify and confuse the fact that maqams don't really behave like scales.
I think it is totally cool to say, "now I am playing in C minor" and then play Cminor scale up and down... but to call that nahawand is misleading i
think.
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by charlie oud
Are you sure Ed? I thought Maqam Rock'em was the one which uses a fuzz box or grunge pedal. We must try and preserve these disappearing maqamet.
Though its nice to see the "cry baby" wah-wah is making a come back. C |
by the way, has that ever been done? Hendrix stuff on FUZZED oud???
 )
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Reda Aouad
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Ed.. ur totally right. Nahawand is not C minor.. it only has the same notes as the C minor scale.. and it's definitely not just a scale! There is no
concept of melodic development in western theory as there is in eastern/arabic/turkish theory.
But even so.. I haven't heard of an arabic maqam that has the same notes of the G mixolydian scale, not even transposed.
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charlie oud
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If I had an electric oud I would give it try, if only to hear what it sounds and feels like 
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charlie oud
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Reda, you say," There is no concept of melodic development in western theory as there is in eastern/arabic/turkish theory".
In western music melodic development is not subject to rules, conceptualisation is at the descretion of the artist.
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Edward Powell
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now, touching on a subject I know nothing about... Charlie you are on to something.. .. .. I think in the old days the "scales" were treated more
like maqams.
and in anycase, back in the early days when there was a lot of experimentatin going on with MEAN-TONE TUNING, each key truly has a different "colour"
(and in fact it's interval placement was different because of the mean-tone. Nowadays all western keys are equal because of equaltemperament)
Another point, actually nahawand is not even the same notes as Cminor. First off, the 7th note is sometimes B, sometimes Bb... and to get really
picky, the 3rd and the 4th degree in nahawand should be played at least one koma more flat than those degrees in a C minor scale. ---they are placed
very very low.
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charlie oud
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Yes Ed, I love the KHAMAJ group of Ragas, they have the most wonderfully atmospheric Alaaps. C
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charlie oud
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I feel out of depth hear but yes equal tempered notes are naff, although I much prefer the micro tones which fall either side of the so called half
flat. The actual bang on half flat is also a bit naff. The Indians are spot on with micro tones, transfer that to your oud.
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Edward Powell
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Khamaj, JhinJhoti, Gawati, Kalavati, JansanMohini...
funny thing tho is that RAGA Khamaj actually uses B more than Bb!
music is always full of paradox - - - just like LIFE!
as soon as it is predictable - it is dead
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adamgood
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(My oversimplified understanding of) the seyir for Ferahfeza as I learned it (feel free to elaborate):
Begins with AcemAsiran, instead of making a full karar on the pitch AcemAsiran, make the karar on the pitch Yegah with a Buselik taste.
That's basically it, if you can do that much you will have made a taksim for Ferahfeza...of course you must know makam AcemAsiran for this.
Can also use some buselik around Neva, check the compositions and you'll notice those possibilities.
Notice in compositions how Ferahfeza and SultaniYegah are somewhat hot-swappable, that's how you can get your buselik from Neva fix.
Tanburi Cemil Bey's Pesrev for Ferahfeza is a great example of the seyir.
Ferahfeza was invented by Dedi Efendi, check his compositions (nice Ayin!) to go old school.
And yes, forget any kind of notion that Ferahfeza is Nihavend transposed, the seyirs are too different.
adam
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Reda Aouad
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Thanks Adam
That's some nice info I wanted to hear.
Any recording of a Farahfaza taqsim?
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Reda Aouad
Thanks Adam
That's some nice info I wanted to hear.
Any recording of a Farahfaza taqsim? |
Picked completely at random and it's how I describe it, not sure who the neyzen is sorry!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXCSz6p1lFs
Listen to the opening, if I didn't know it was ferahfeza I would assume it's AcemAsiran taksim.
best,
adam
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katakofka
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| Quote: | Originally posted by adamgood
Picked completely at random and it's how I describe it, not sure who the neyzen is sorry!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXCSz6p1lFs
Listen to the opening, if I didn't know it was ferahfeza I would assume it's AcemAsiran taksim.
best,
adam |
ADam
Would you be able to tell:
1-in arabic and western this is a D minor takasim or Nahwand D. Ferfahfaza is a G or a D minor in turkish music?
2- the notation is written as s D minor scale however the Nay is playing an E minor, one tone above what's written
thanks
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Edward Powell
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Hi Kata
First of all, for an Arab oriented musician to understand what is going on in this ney taksim it is necessary to know about the different transposed
tunings - and second, to know about AcemAsirani makami.
On the ney clip it says at the top of the page that this is played in KIZ NEY (tuning). This means that the written note C is played as an A. However
(and the third thing you must know about Turkish music), RAST DOES NOT START FROM DO--- IT STARTS FROM SOL.
So... as Adam says, what you have going on at first is:
-Acem Asiran makami
-played in KIZNEY tuning
-written in Turkish orientation (RAST - NAHAWAND - NIKRIZ... all starting from SOL ----- BAYATI - HICAZ - starting from LA.... etc.
To make things really simple to understand, AcemAsiran is sort of like just a major scale with the tonic F (in Turkish), Si flat (in Arab). BUT Acem
note is the octave of this scale and that octave note is the central note of this makam... everything in the beginning revolves around the acem
note.
Ok, now that I am analyzing this more closely he is actually playing in BOLAHANK tuning, not KIZNEY. Bolahank means that C written is played as D.
Kata when you say you are hearing an Eminor, actually what you are hearing is G major. (very close, E is the relative minor of G - and the written key
signature is the same). In Turkish music AcemAsiran is basically an F major centered around the octave... so if you play this in BOLAHANK it will be
G major ------- and E is the relative minor so this is why you are reading it like Dminor and hearing it like Eminor (which is actually G major).
Make sense?
)
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katakofka
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Wow. All theseeeeeee
the whole takasim is an E minor in western music (164 Hz).
When looking into the notation you see the B half flat. Consider it flat, meaning this is or F Major or D minor. What I know about turkish music (
very little) is that the pitch is one tone higher. So the E is understandable. Now we say this is a E minor or a G Major.Now, farahfaza is a G minor
or Major? goshhhhhh I am lost
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Edward Powell
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Actually I don't know Ferahfeza, but it seems, according to Adam, that Ferahfeza is essentially AcemAsiran, but with a modified ending. So for now,
forget about the ending and just consider it AcemAsiran.
AcemAsiran is simply F major. When you play in BOLAHANK tuning, you actually play everything ONE WHOLE TONE HIGHER than the written note... therefore
F major becomes G major.
I know how you feel Kat! When I first began trying to make any sense of Ottoman theory it twisted my brain cells majorly.... but in fact it is no big
deal.
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Reda Aouad
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Ed.. you may be right about the the bolahenk ney. This is what I also thought about this taqsim as well.
But I didn't understand what you are saying about it.. are you saying it's a Major/Ajam taqsim? Because it isn't.. it's Farahfaza with emphasis on the
Ajam tetrachord in it.. which makes it sound more like Ajam. And it ends on RE (D) which is the tonic of Farahfaza in Turkish music (G in Arabic).
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katakofka
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Lounga Riad el sombati, we call it lounga farahfaza and it's a G minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gyjftehC7c
My understanding so far is that the turkish Farahfaza is an E Minor that emphasize on G Major in Arabic and western nomenclature. The finger position
on the oud is a D minor as compared to the arabic oud. Goshhhhhhh
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Edward Powell
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As I said, I don't know Ferahfeza... but Adam says that it starts with something very similar to AcemAsiran... so in looking at just the beginning
- let's forget for the moment about ferahfeza and try to find Acemasiran - just for the sake of getting oriented to this ney taksim example.
...in fact, now I am also getting confused, and I have to fly out the door and be out all day - - -
it seems bolahank according to how it is written, but according to how it "looks" on the oud it seems KIZNEY. Anyway, at the moment my mind is jumping
btw Turk and Arab system...
When I get back this evening I will sort it out - that is if Adam or another does not beat me to it!
...btw, I can ask Mohammed today for the details of Ferahfeza.
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adamgood
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I really wanna jump in and explain some things but I'm really busy all day, will try to chime in tomorrow or sooooooooooon!
best,
Adam
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Edward Powell
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...Ok, I got it figured out and clarified.
My confusion was a result actually of having a mistake in my notes about the tunings.
So, yes in fact, as it is stated - this taksim is being played in KIZNEY... and it is written in TURKISH NOTATION MEANING THAT RAST STARTS FROM SOL,
AND BAYATI STARTS IN LA and so on.
I had written in my notes that in Turkish tuning if you PLAY one whole tone higher than what is written then you are in bolahank - - - this is
wrong... it should be KIZNEY tuning (as is the example).
So, why is this confusing?
The reason is that only considering the written page, ARABS WRITE RAST AS STARTING FROM DO - AND TURKS WRITE RAST AS STARTING FROM SOL.... this is
how the music is written!
- - -
Now, this is where it gets really confusing, and I will explain it the best I can - - - if I am wrong please correct me immediately
There are TWO THINGS we need to consider when trying to understand the relationship between the written notes and the played notes in both Arab and
Turkish musics. One of these things IS CONSTANT between the two musics, and the other thing IS NOT CONSTANT.
The thing which is CONSTANT (meaning the SAME in both systems), is the PLAYED NOTES IN THE VARIOUS TRANSPOSED TUNINGS, for example;
1. First of all- ALL the notes in the makam system have oriental names.
-Rast makam starts with Rast note
-Nahawand/nihavent start on Rast note
-many makams start on Dugah note: bayati, hicaz, ussak, buselik... etc
-etc etc ---once you CHOOSE your starting point in the system, then ALL the makams will keep their proper place... for example if I choose to play
A (la) as the RAST NOTE, then bayati will start on B (si)... etc etc understood?
So, let us for the sake of convenience choose one note as representing the RAST NOTE in the most "natural" way. Let us say that the most natural note
to represent the RAST NOTE is C (do).
According the this choice, then when you write music in the ARAB system, then the note which is written is exactly the REAL ACTUAL NOTE THAT IS
PLAYED, BECAUSE IN THE ARAB SYSTEM THE "RAST" NOTE IS WRITTEN AS C (do).
these are the different names for some of the transposed tunings:
RAST NOTE = do = SUPERDE tuning
RAST NOTE = re = BOLAHANK tuning
RAST NOTE = sol = MANSUR tuning
RAST NOTE = la = KIZNEY tuning
RAST NOTE = si = MUSTAZEN tuning
...this is the same in both Arab and Turk systems
2. What is NOT constant and the same in both systems (arab/turk) is how the music is written. Arabs consider the RAST NOTE to be C (do), and Turks
consider the RAST note to be G (sol) in the way of writing. Therefore when you see makam Rast written in Turkish music, the first note of makam Rast
(the rast note) will be written as SOL! ...but in Arab notation the rast note is written as DO!
- - -
Now, in writing all of this out like this, I have had to really confirm all of it in my own mind, and it has been confusing ------ but now I know the
reason - the exact reason WHY IT HAS BEEN SO CONFUSING for me.
The reason is because in my descriptions of the transposed tuning system I was using the Western note names NOT THE ORIENTAL NAMES... and THIS is what
caused all the confusion. I had in my notes that:
Do played as Do = superde tuning (arab notation)
....but I also had it in my notes
Do played as Do = mansur tuning (turk notation)
See how confusing this is!!!!!?
The solution is this:
RAST NOTE played as Do = superde tuning
RAST NOTE played as Sol = mansur tuning
....the moral of the story is this:
1. WHENEVER TALKING ABOUT A NOTE IN A MAKAM ALWAYS USE THE ORIENTAL NAME, not the Western name... or you will get confused
2. Whenever you are talking about the "pitch" (in terms of frequency A=440 etc) of a note, then use the Western name: La = A etc
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Reda Aouad
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So I understand that you mean the following:
Turkish Rast (SOL) played as LA is Kizney tuning?
(Which is the case of the Ferahfaza taqsim example since it sounds one note higher)
Now that's what I call confusing!
But thanks for the good ( though a bit messy  ) explanation..
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